So we've all heard/seen the 650 xchallenge...let's see your XCOUNTRY!

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Olas, Dec 3, 2007.

  1. Gravel Seeker

    Gravel Seeker Old, growing older.

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    Missed the kick start, but thought the engine case looked like the one in the add. Not a good sign of course that the engine listed is not for the bike in the picture they use in the listing....

    I don't mind plastic on street bikes as much :-)
  2. Gravel Seeker

    Gravel Seeker Old, growing older.

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    Yeah I know. We had this discussion here (in one of the 650 threads around new years I think. I know very well that Made in China doesn't necessarily equal low quality. But when the quality is top notch the item cost the same from a trusted factory in Europe (we had low volume top shelf production in China, but took it back to Norway and Sweden in the end, mostly because quality control and communication was easier locally. Even though we had Chinese employees in China following up)

    I also know that "it's made in the same factory" is a bullshit claim as the factories will have parts of many levels of quality, but the same physical dimensions/ appearance. So two things look the same, but aren't.

    For this $6000 engine that cost $340, they have clearly used something from the cheap bins (as I said in the original post) to get the price down. Even when you take the longer supply chain, freight and dealer networks of BMW into account, no one can justify a 1765% mark up.

    Just look at a jacket or tent for instance. Both are made in the same factory, from the same patterns.

    The expensive one uses the best and more experienced personnel, allow 10 minutes more for sewing, top shelf fabric, zippers, thread and soak through waterproofing. The sample 20/100 jackets in quality control and margins of error is 3%.

    The cheap one use cheap fabric, zippers, thread and only apply a coat to the outside of the fabric and it has to be finished in at least 10 minutes shorter time. They sample 5/100 and margin is 5%.
    Both are made in the same factory. Like I said, worthless statement.

    Same with this engine. They use different components and have different standards depending on the order sheet from the customer. I'll add that BMW maybe ordered 100.000 engines all in all while they may have made 50.000.000 for the Chinese market for all know and that would bring the price down per engine of course.
  3. Gravel Seeker

    Gravel Seeker Old, growing older.

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    Think "BMW built Rotax engine" means Loncin :-)
    I could be wrong, but think BMW just assembled the bike with either engines or engine parts from Loncin.
  4. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    $6000 engine on $7500 bike? BMW is a king of markups. Back in 70s Honda was exporting Japan made powertrains for $700. Even now it's still 2-3k

    As far X engines IIRC they were made out of Rotax parts shipped to China. For Loncin to earn ISO 9002 all of their production must comply; even if they use locally produced parts they must QC them. And locally made not necessarily bad Rotax waterpump shafts were made out of soft cheese.. later ones supposedly harder grade stainless steel.

    I would suspect $340 engine isn't made by Loncin but maybe it is. NOS, overrun, etc Used eBay engines are ~$1500 just saying $340 is less than it would cost you to buy stripped shaft replacement.. and even if it's counterfeit there are alot more useful parts in it besides shaft.

    As for real vs fake here's his take.. scroll down to 7:03 mark:
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  5. computer_freak

    computer_freak Been here awhile

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  6. computer_freak

    computer_freak Been here awhile

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    Also one of the biggest nightmares for western companies is third shift manufacturing. It's where the Chinese factory runs two ordinary shifts a day, but then runs a third shift at night that they sell off to the local market. Obviously with less to no quality assurance. I highly doubt this happens at Loncin but it happens in clothing manufacturing.
  7. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    Looks like $340 isn't loncin but Lifan or even lesser MFG and you have to order a crate to get this price.

    Suppose you can get one for $430+100 shipping.. with $1550 price on used the idea of getting one, putting it in the bike with expectation that it would blow up in a season then fixing your original engine with parts off Chinese mill doesn't sound that bad.

    But what kind of failure would justify this? If it is top end it would be easier to replace rings and valve seals without talking engine out. If damaged final drive splines I would attempt to weld and recut them without splitting crankcase. If cracked case wouldn't it be easier to JB Weld? Take it to a welder? Perhaps exploded transmission? Seized engine?
  8. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    I'm assuming you've never taken "the engine out" on an X ?

    The engine is integral part of the bike.

    The main frame that has the headstock connected has the two lower frame parts bolted to it each side with three M8 bolts (IIRC) and those bolt to the sides of the engine.
    The head bolts to the (separate) section that holds the front upper part of subframe and to which the shock mounts so taking off the head/cylinder will have you taking over half the bike apart alone.
  9. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    Thanks for tip.. So you're saying you have to remove that triangle upper shock mount to pull cylinder off? You don't have to take swingarm and disassemble footrest frame pieces, right?

    As for (JB) welding crankcase or welding/cutting splines you don't have to take engine off for sure.
  10. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    Yep. And I don't guarantee you it will be possible even then.

    [Edit] You also have to find a solution for the subframe as that also bolts to that piece, not forgetting the fuel tank being mounted to the subframe. It might hinge out of the way enough though.
    Then there's the front cross brace too so all the stiffness in the frame will be gone.
    It's worth keeping an eye on everything in that case.
  11. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    @Dutchgit I met a German on XCh in central Asia his bike had 24000km and was consuming oil like there is no tomorrow. That put me on alert but for the money I got my XCo with 21k I didn't think doing top end would be such hustle. If I new this and the access to last bolt on waterpump I would have bailed out.
  12. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    There are people who will ride through a sand storm without paying any regard to the air filter thinking it's just some item which you change for a new one at the 10.000km service. Very few people will owe up to their own mistakes when it comes to damage on an item they use when that damage is self inflicted.
    I have read a story of people taking the engine of the X apart at 100.000km and state that the honing marks are still clearly visible.
    There's also a story from someone (or might have been two people) who did a overland trip on a Husqvarna TR650 that had major top end damage and got stranded in I think Iran or such.
    The airfilter on the the TR doesn't even seal properly on all 4 sides !
    We had one of those bikes as my wife liked it but we were glad to be able to sell it after 5000 km. The TR is in some respects even worse to work on as the X. Besides that it was a times a danger to the rider, being set up so lean burning that the engine would die on you just as you entered a roundabout. I experienced that a good number of times myself too.

    My bike has around 60.000 km on it and I'm on my first replacement waterpump. I fitted that when I had the engine apart somewhere over 40.000 km ago when I dropped it on the stock shifter. I would not worry having to change the pump again either.
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  13. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    We put considerable work into understanding the TR problems & how they came about including real time logging, it was not a "lean burn" issue, it was other aspects of a defective firmware version, the Husky Dealers were not set up & trained re predelivery processes & were supplying the bikes without updating the BMS-E firmware before delivery, updating them to the final BMW release firmware solves the problem
  14. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    Thanks Wayne, I haven't heard that before. We sold the bike years ago.
    Was the airfilter issue fixed too ?

    I have to say though, the quality of the plastics was pretty bad, including the way they were mounted.
    Of course the factory don't provide for the DIY rider but I feel sorry for any mechanic that had to work on those bikes.
    One of the other things was that the rear (steel!) swing arm was collecting water. Again not the best design.
  15. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    The airfilter issue was not addressed by Husky but better sealing of the air box with a taller seal was worked out & filter frames to properly seal the filter was done by someone here in Oz so owners were either buying them or 3D printing them

    You are right re the TR to be a pita to work on at times, the bodywork & Husky local sourced parts are a problem, a mate here has one & it rocks & rolls, a nice bike to ride & he puts it through our dirt roads regularly. The big problem was the sale of Husky at the same time as releasing the bike, BMW withdrew ex pat personnel from the factory, BMW Intellectual Property was not part of the sale then BMW washed their hands of the Dealers & owners plus would not co operate in having those bikes in the field updated to overcome problems, really appalling behaviour, I wont bore you with the details but it all went to the safety regulators around the world to get a recall done, even that is a bit dodgy but the TR electronics can be sorted & made a good bike, the worst aspect is the EWS, pleased the 650GS & X dont have it
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  16. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    A relatively easy way to get around that would be to adopt a BMW X ECU. Possibly need the wiring and maybe one or two sensors ?
    I'm still interested in swapping my engine out for a Husky one if I found one cheap enough. I did like the feel of the torque on the TR.
  17. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    Is It really better? I couldn't get X ECU idle reliably hot in traffic (splitting is severely prosecuted here) until putting Sol2 plug.
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  18. WayneC

    WayneC Long timer

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    The TR is a BMS-E not a BMSC-II as per the X & it CANBUS so not even the 2014+ G650GS/Sertao BMS-E would suit with the higher reving TR, eliminating the EWS on the TR is problematic as the system connects to the dash first & sends info to the BMS-E via CANBUS unlike the early BMW R Series & other models which wire the EWS electronics direct to the BMS-KP
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  19. DGR

    DGR G650X

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    Funny how we had a similar experience with the stock idle.
    Mine would sometimes stop idling when decellerating to a stop, especially near freezing temperatures. I guess it was running way too lean. Because since I mounted the Sol2 it's over. I enjoy being able to trust a bike to perform it's basic functions :-)

    @WayneC , do you work at BMW? I'm amazed by the amount of technical details you come up with... :eek2
    Love it! :clap
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  20. Dutchgit

    Dutchgit Completely clogless

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    Oh I get most of that but I'm in the "keep it simple" camp so I'd just have a X engine management on a TR engine. Maybe even skimp on the X dash if it's not available or acting up. I'm quite happy with how high the X engine revs anyway.
    On a TR you could use a Trailtech dash and a BMW 650 ignition lock to get rid of that EWS crap.