Stators demystified

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Luke, Dec 17, 2006.

  1. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,264
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR

    You're measuring the voltage with a voltmeter, right? That shows you the voltage- averaged over about 1/3 of a second. If you hook the meter up to a battery, it'll say 13V. If you hook it up to something that generates power in repeating pulses - say, 100V for 13 milliseconds followed by 0 V for 87 milliseconds the meter will still say 13V*.

    Hook a 13V headlight up to this 100V pulsing power source and it will be perfectly happy. If you have a GPS designed for 13V, it will be ruined by the same source.

    If this same power source were adjusted so that it put out 100V for 13 seconds, then 0V for 87 seconds, the voltmeter would alternate between 100V and 0V, and the headlight would burn out after a second or so of 100V.


    *Yes, I'm ignoring the difference between mean and RMS.
  2. elsalvadorklr

    elsalvadorklr southern xr rider

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,158
    Location:
    Columbus, GA
    hmmmmmmmmmmmm the manual is very vague...as in it shows how to test the exciter coil while connected to the harness on the frame. Looking at my two wires they are both white, coming ot of the coil/stator, cant distinguish between the two. one wire has a bigger connector if that means anything. Am I supposed to take off all that epoxy and get a wire off the exciter and then ground the negative to any ground? engine, bolt, whatever...

    Sorry for being dumb but I guess im not looking hard enough. Ive read the xrs post from jaw, but he unwound his coils from the get go.
    thanks so much, great help, and please excuse my ignorance!
    Christian
  3. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,264
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR

    Don't take off the epoxy unless you want to rewind it. Touch one lead of your ohmmeter to the core of the stator -or the bolts or the cover- and the other to the connector pin you want to measure. One wire should go to the CDI (probably the thinner one) and the other to the regulator.
  4. elsalvadorklr

    elsalvadorklr southern xr rider

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,158
    Location:
    Columbus, GA
    ok so you are saying that I should hook up the two wires from the stator to the cdi and regulator like they would be normally on a running bike and then test the same leads that way?

    I feel retarded. sorry, ill read up more. I thought there was a way of testing resistance just by testing one coil to a ground and vice versa. what I get that way is either pegged at 0 ohms, or no reading at all. Using the core as ground, or stator cover as ground.

    Ill see what I can find out...thanks very much for your help.
    Cheers!
  5. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,264
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR

    No, you understood it correctly. I was just pointing out that you can figure out which wire is which by following the wires around the wiring harness and seeing where they go. Sorry if I made it more confusing.

    Was the bike working before you took it apart?
  6. elsalvadorklr

    elsalvadorklr southern xr rider

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,158
    Location:
    Columbus, GA
    bought bike in a bucket! hence my worries...great deal, im in el salvador, everything is complete, or pretty much. You can check my thread its XR600 REBUILD? YES, BUDGET MAYBE!
    Sorry dont know how to link and still stay on same page! jajaja!
    Quick story on bike.
    Bike ran when tore down. Bike was knocking. Previous owner took it apart, found out the crank or rod or combination was lose or bad, took it to get it checked out or repaired and the shop "lost it". Sooooooooooo since he didnt know any better, they gave him a different crank and that was that, the bike was left torn apart for a YEAR.
    I bought it with plates and paperwork for cheap, at least here. And just ordered all the parts needed for a rebuild, or so I think. While waiting Ive done the usual cleaning up, checking all parts, trying to understand what goes where and pretty much going over all the bits and pieces, I think I have everything. The cases where together and the transmission is good to go, no pitting great actually and shifted there when I looked at it.
    Sooooooooooooo, thats where I am at. jajaja!
    I did get some help from some friends here like Steve from sf, headtrauma, etcc and many more, and they also said to test the coil your way, but like I said I get either 0 ohms pegged or nothing...so Ill take it to a shop and see if they can measure it with a better meter.
    If its a no go on the exciter coil, being that I am in the jungle so to speak....same wraps? same gauge wire? can I make it better? My 88 has no more poles sooo can I leave the lighting poles alone? the epoxy is all over the poles so how can I isolate them and fix the exciter coil?
    Anywho sorry for the winded story...
    Thanks so much!
    Christian
  7. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,264
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    Since the bike ran before teardown, I'd assume the stator works. Clean it up and check it for mechanical damage that might have happened when it was in storage. If you have no spark after putting the engine back together then worry about it. On the other hand, it'd be really discouraging to get the motor back together and have it not work right away.

    It can be hard to get good contact for measuring resistance. Rust, plating, or paint can prevent good contact. Good meters usually come with sharp probes for scratching through all that. Getting a good resistance measurement does take a bit of practice, and is more dependent on the type of meter than regular voltage measurements, so getting someone experienced to show you in person may help a lot.
  8. elsalvadorklr

    elsalvadorklr southern xr rider

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,158
    Location:
    Columbus, GA
    Hey! well guess what? yes it did run before and now the double whammy, I first got a reading from this shop that was supposed to help me rewind it_for 150 no less) and got a reading of 300. Twice, theeeeen, being all worried and doubtfull about a good reading, I went to my kawa dealer that Im friends with and got a reading fo 325 almost all the time, now I didnt scratch or clean anything up really. We went from one wire to the bolt on the inner circle, and then onto the metal. 325 or so repeatedly. Now, in order to keep things unaletered, not messed with, what can I do to clean this up and maybe, maybe help out resistence/continuity wise? contact cleaner? carb cleaner? I havent done anything to clean up the stator...do you think maybe by changing the connectors and cleaning up, that might help a bit?

    Thanks. Yes it would be a total bummer to put it back in and then no spark. so is spending $150! Im way over budget!

    Cheers, your a great help.
    Christian
  9. elsalvadorklr

    elsalvadorklr southern xr rider

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,158
    Location:
    Columbus, GA
    Hey Luke, the definitive reading on the stat is 317, Im going to risk using it as is but want to know what I can use to clean the baked oil on the poles? anything I can do to help the stator do its job Ill do...what cleaners are safe? contact cleaner? can I just lightly sand the top of the poles?
    Thanks!
    Christian
  10. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,264
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    I don't think there's anything you can do to help the stator. The oil won't hurt anything. As long as there's good electrical contact between the core and the engine case it will be fine. Just make sure there's no loose gunk on it that might end up in the motor.

    Be careful not to pinch the wires when putting it back together, and a little loctite on the stator bolts won't hurt anything either.
  11. elsalvadorklr

    elsalvadorklr southern xr rider

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2008
    Oddometer:
    4,158
    Location:
    Columbus, GA
    Hey this is what I did, I cleaned the housing(without the stator) and then I lightly scraped off the baked oil on the contact patch of the poles. Carefully.
    Thats all I did! Ill see if I can get someone to crimp on or solder new connectors, and thats it!
    Thanks!
    Ill let you know if it starts! jajajaja!

    [​IMG]
  12. IronSpadeCycles

    IronSpadeCycles Button Pusher

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Houston TX
    Luke thank you so much for taking the time to explain in much detail the ins and outs of our electrical systems. I'm a professional fabricator and a self taught motorcycle mechanic with 25+ years experience building all makes from Japanese to German to British. But even after all these years of wrenching, anything more than figuring out why the lights don't work or why the battery keeps going dead seems to get my head a hurting.

    That all being said, I think I feel comfortable enough now (after reading the last 8 pages of information) to attempt rewinding the stator on my 88' XR600R. The main purpose of the rewind to me is to set the bike up as a rally style DS bike I'm planning on putting some serious miles on later this year. I'd like to have a dual output circuit scenario to run the basic DS kit with battery (LED tail/stop light, LED turn signals and an HID 35w low beam light). I also want to power a GPS as well as have a power dock (2 cigarette lighter style plugs) to charge my camera batteries or laptop while riding. The second circuit would only power an additional 75-100w Halogen off road light that could be switched on and off. I also want to wire in a temporary "on" trigger or push handlebar switch to use this circuit as the high beam for oncoming traffic.

    So my questions are if I strip the stock light coil wires off and rewind the stock 4 poles for more output on my DS kit and the remaining 6 poles for the second circuit can these be wired as two separate circuits independently? Would I need 2 separate regulator/rectifiers for this set up? Would the 4/6 pole configuration work or is a 5/5 pole setup better?

    I think I understand your explanation and spreadsheet but I'm wondering if this 2 circuit scenario would be possible and if so, how many turns and what gauge wire would be best suited? So I guess I'm looking for roughly a 75w/125w or (2) 100w AC circuits.

    This also just popped into my head but what are the effects of odd number of poles in a circuit and should they be always in consecutive series? IE 4/6 pole scenario- first circuit ABAB, second circuit ABABAB or 5/5 pole scenario- ABABA, BABAB ? (A= clockwise turn, B= counter clockwise turn)

    Man I can feel my brain turning to mush right about now, even though I'm sure I forgot something.

    Thanks again for your time, talk soon Travis
  13. IronSpadeCycles

    IronSpadeCycles Button Pusher

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Houston TX
    OK so I've put some more thought into it all and I think the easiest plan of attack is to wind two sets of 5-poles with 280 turns each. Will I be able to wind 56 turns on each pole with 18G wire? With all of your math Luke, what can I expect the watts to be from each of the two circuits? Again will I need two regulator/rectifiers to wire the two circuits separately? I will be including a small 2.1Ahr SLA battery with the DS kit on one of the circuits.

    Luke thanks again for taking your time on this, I'm still stumped by all the math.

    Later Travis
  14. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,264
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR

    So the battery and the DC reg/rect will be necessary for the HID side, for the halogen side a separate AC regulator is probably the way to go.

    I think the windings will physically fit, but you'll need to wind them really neatly to get them all on.

    280 turns on 5 poles should give you:
    48W @ 1200rpm
    76 @ 2400
    85 @ 3600

    That seems like a good setup for the DC side, but not for the halogen light

    200 turns on 5 poles should give you:
    36 @ 1200
    91 @ 2400
    110 @3600

    You might be able to stuff 16ga wire on this winding.


    Three big guesses: First is that the XR600R has the same rotor and stator as the XR400R and XR650R. Second is that your HID is going to draw 48 watts. Third is that it's ok if the high beam goes dim at idle, it only needs to reach full brightness at above, say, 2400 rpm.

    If you want to be safer on the DC side, you might dedicate 6 poles to that and only 4 to the halogen.
  15. IronSpadeCycles

    IronSpadeCycles Button Pusher

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Houston TX
    Yeah, not sure on the HID draw just yet but its advertised as only drawing 35w, (I know advertising seldom is accurate). The Hi beam really is only going to be used off road with the occasional "Flash" at oncoming traffic. As far as the 400 matching the 600, I think they are almost exactly alike. The only obvious difference is the Pulse Gen is included in the harness with the XR400 but not the XR600. I have both bikes and I'm planning on setting them both up the same so I'll let you know what they look like after I pull the covers this weekend. I need to find wire asap.

    OK so supposing I go 6 poles for the 280 turn (HID circuit) and 4 poles for the 200 turn (halogen circuit) what gauge wire would be best for each circuit?

    For the XR600 I have a ElectroSport DS kit my buddy gave me that he took off his crashed XR650. So I'm only really going to use the brain and it has a good Regulator/Rectifier with it. The XR400 I'm going to have to make a DS kit from scratch, which I'm not really worried about. I'm omitting the blinkers on the 400 so it will just be a brake/taillight headlight and horn with a power point for the GPS and a small battery for DPS inspections.

    Thanks again, talk soon Travis
  16. Luke

    Luke GPoET&P

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2004
    Oddometer:
    5,264
    Location:
    Beaverton, OR
    For a 4 & 6 pole circuits I'd try 150 turns on the 4 and 300 turns for the 6. I'd go with 18ga for everything. You might be able to fit 16ga, but it's much harder to work with. A 1 pound spool should be enough for 3 stators.
    glittleman likes this.
  17. NordieBoy

    NordieBoy Armature speller

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Oddometer:
    7,257
    Location:
    Kiwiland
    The traffic will be past before the HID has warmed up.
  18. IronSpadeCycles

    IronSpadeCycles Button Pusher

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Houston TX
    The HID is the low beam and on all the time with the 75-100W Halogen is the hi beam.

    Later Travis
  19. NordieBoy

    NordieBoy Armature speller

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2006
    Oddometer:
    7,257
    Location:
    Kiwiland
    Ahh.

    I've got the bi-xenon H4 setup with HID low and high.
  20. IronSpadeCycles

    IronSpadeCycles Button Pusher

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2009
    Oddometer:
    263
    Location:
    Houston TX
    Ok so last week I dove into my 88 model XR600R and found the same weird 5 pole half-moon shaped stator as Christian in El Salvador did. So over the weekend, I drove into Houston to pick up a shock from PigTrail and he hooked me up with a newer 96 model side cover and the 12 pole stator that came stock. So I now have a viable place to start. I'm off to Fry's in an hour or so to buy 18G sheilded coil wire and hopefully be able to start winding the new set up tonight after work.

    Updates to follow...

    Later Travis
    glittleman likes this.