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Discussion in 'Americas' started by emacs, Oct 9, 2013.
+1. But they are always entertaining, kind of like Donald Trump.
I have been collecting TAT maps and tracks since 2008 or so but haven't ridden west of Salida. The earliest of my Colorado TAT maps included Hancock and Tomichi Pass. The set from 2011 or so skips those and goes much further south. At the time I was told that people were complaining about those passes being too hard for big bikes so the new maps only included the "Big Bike Bypasses". Kevin's blue route has the same southern route of my 2011 maps as well as a "red" alternate that appears to include the Agate trail.
Looking at some videos, the Agate trail looks awesome and will probably be my preferred route though it is much shorter than crossing the two passes. I am kind of curious as to why Kevin didn't put in the passes as Red alternates.
Are they both still open?
Are they more or less fun than the Agate?
Given a very recently lawsuit, the court has ordered US Forestry/National Park to close about 147 roads in Colorado.. you may want to look into that and find out. I imagine Sam now have a lot of works to do between now and riding season to come up with trail for riders to get through CO. Anyone wanting to do TAT may need to bypass CO and slab it from NM to Utah? Or come up with new trail from NM to Utah without touching CO? I don't know..
The only Agate trail I know of in the area is a pretty gnarly single track up around Monarch Pass. But I haven't ridden there in several years and don't know much to begin with.
Maybe there is a good DS road with the same name.
Link to agreement and list of possibly impacted roads. http://www.eenews.net/assets/2015/11/16/document_pm_01.pdf.
if you want to know what these closures are all about , all you need to do is read page 9 paragraph 10
This is how I view it.
You were never paying to ride public roads, you were paying Sam for some paper maps to lead you onto an Adventure. No different then Butler maps provides you. I have no clue if Sam created the route he rode and then started to make maps of, nor has that really been addressed. People seem to be hung up on the NAME. Who the fuck cares honestly about the name! Sam didn't create the name. I'm more interested in if Sam ride/s the route/s and then sells his paper maps so others could enjoy it? Or did he just ride a route that was known back then? Either way him selling maps to make it easy for others was a smart business move. Remember this was back before GPS's so creating a route and hell keeping track of it to be able to sell to others is a huge task. So Sam is compensated by selling paper maps that is his nitch for HIS ride.
However like all things Sam is outdated now, GPS units are common as we all have them and even if you think you don't and own a smartphone you own a GPS. The tracks you make are your tracks, Sam can not really own the tracks but he can make life easy for people and sell them and so can Kevin that is their right. Right now as it was pointed out in this long thread Sam now provides tracks but he does not list way-points he makes you also buy for more money the paper maps. That is his business decision to do but for me as a consumer I don't want paper maps at all I want everything needing listed in the GPX file (assuming I want to follow others tracks to the T).
Sam emails you the tracks, $12 per track...I think it added up to $108 when I looked. That is a LOT for an email, and those tracks don't even provide you with way-points to useful things like gas station, maybe scenic spots, must see stuff. You know stuff you kind of expect in a track being sold for money. Kevin basically sells you a SD card with the tracks that have way-points for like $40, but you are physically getting a SD card I doubt he is making much off them and this is for the extremely either lazy person or technology challenged person because you can just download them for free.
As for the difference between Sam or Kevin's tracks, I have no clue...or care really. It sounds like the newer Sam tracks are a snore feast, I'm the type that likes a challenge. So I find it funny Sam takes out harder stuff, just mark it harder especially if you are selling GPS tracks. I can not believe people will ride the TAT and only cover 175 miles..WTF, but hey to each their own. I would only use the tracks from either as a reference but I am on an adventure I make my own tracks and routes and just have a ball. In which case I guess people would say, but that is not the TAT. Who cares as long as I have fun and it's going Trans America (for me it's hard to use the word Trail when it's a graded dirt road).
Getting across CO is not that hard on dirt, hell I have driven my car mostly dirt across Kansas and have found some awesome areas. I'll share the tracks when I do it because well I like sharing tracks and my rides and they are my tracks. I won't go to an event and share tracks after being lead around, but I have the legal right to do so. I also know some awesome stuff across UT and NV, and although I know there is awesome stuff in Idaho I would do UT and NV myself. Again the TAT hardcore person will scream and kick that it's not the TAT, sure it is just as much as Sams is the TAT.
As for USFS, yeah Sam is running a business selling tracks that lead people through public lands, the BLM and USFS don't typically like that sort of thing. Someone mentioned maybe he should pay a percentage to the land managers. Well that is good in theory but they don't work like that. When we at Rocky Mountain Adventure Riders hold an Rendezvous we have to get permits from State, USFS, and BLM...in Moab we actually also have to get one from the School system (they own a lot of land and if you look at a map it's checkered). If we cross into more then one Ranger district we have to get a permit from that ranger district too. A point to point ride, yep you need to apply for every ranger district you are going through.
As for Sam I would think it would still be classified as touring as you are providing a map/track so people can go on a specific tour. True it might be self guided but it's still a tour in the land managers eyes. Going after Sam would be an undertaking so although some rangers may know of him, and the TAT they would need to build a case...probably be pretty hard to do. Just like the land managers don't like the Jeep groups that gather say in Denver and drive out to a pass and drive over it in a large group...they hate it but enforcing is hard.
To each their own on whether they pay for Sam's tracks, Sam's maps or they download Kevin's tracks. Someone gave me Sams way back when. To me no different then someone passing on a paper map just that now with GPX files you can share those on a larger scale. Honestly it sounds from this thread Sam relies on others to help, does he pay these people...I for sure would not help him perfect his maps that he sales for $$$$. I think there is a lot of information left off here on who does what, and who made the motorized TAT to begin with whether it was some guy that put it all together and sold maps or a guy that just rode someone else's trail and sold maps.
I'll just get back to making my own way and having an Adventure...after all it's why we ride Dual Sports and Adventure bikes.
ain't that the truth.
As I posted in SE regional forum. Several "part time" residents that own land on the north end of Starr Mountain Road in the Ocoee Ranger District have gotten a lawyer and plan to push a case against the Forest Service on the grounds of their easement, "proper" uses, and maintenance. Mostly they just want their "private road" closed so they can have the entire northern portion of Starr Mountain all to them selves I guess. Next nearest access is at least 10 miles away.
Seems that GPSkevin is pissing off people all over North America including the government!
Do we get to thank GPSkevin and his groups of losers for that closure?
Where are all his defenders and supporters since it has been shown that he rips off people everywhere he goes? He trains people to be professional liars while telling them to go ahead and ride on private property, while also stealing other people's promotional materials, while also riding course that is in the process of being marked for a race, while pissing of the locals, which are the ones who get trails closed.
And why the hell is it that every picture of gpskevin I see he is wearing a blue Yamaha jacket. Does the douche bag have any other riding gear? or is that his only getup?
Dumb fucking gpskevin pissed of probably two of the biggest off road groups in the west.
That dude is a slime ball like no other.
It is possible but I really can't comment if GPSKevin made a lot of trail around Colorado, where the lawsuit occured? There are a lot of ATV and UTV activities in the CO and if I am correctly, GPSKevin is from CA. More research on your end would need to be made before making accusation.
I've never used GPSKevin's track. Only Sam's and seeing that there has been a re-routing bypassing Nevada and a little more route on eastern US, I'm considering to buy Sam's new version and re-do TAT in few years..
Haters gonna hate!
Most people do hate it when you screw it up for everyone else.
3% ruin it for the other 97%.
Obviously you have strong feelings and holding an event in a park without getting a permit is asking for shutdown of the event, so GPSKevin was wrong in that. He wasn't the first and won't be the last.
But your allegations don't match up with the facts when it comes to the closures. This kind of innuendo on ADV will pop right up in a Google Search by any conservation extremists and can come back to bite us, so please get your facts right BEFORE you post. If you look into the lawsuit at all, you'll see that it had ZERO to do with the TAT, Sam, GPSKevin, or ADV, and the reality about what led to the closures was:
"The Forest Service will conduct the study over five years in response to the lawsuit claiming that it skipped a major step in road construction — doing environment assessments — and holding public meetings before building roads in national forests. In 2011, several environmental groups filed suit against the Forest Service, claiming that 500 miles of road for motor vehicles added to the system in 2008 had been added or built illegally, without the required study or public input."
I see, gpskevin had nothing to do with this lawsuit that is being discussed, but considering the thread title and the fact there is some disagreement I still feel before people are directed to someone's website to download tracks, maybe they need to consider the source?
Pay attention to the part about single track.
This is ridiculous. I have never seen one person do so much stupid shit and be dumb enough to post it all on the internet.
That's the difference between Sam and gpsKevin.
You know, I started adventure riding over 30 years ago, before it was called adventure riding. Back then it was just called riding, and I didn't use maps, and there wasn't GPS, I did it alone, and it really was an adventure, especially for a 12 year old.
You are correct. How does someone cause so much hate across such a wide area?
Some people work to protect this sport while others work to destroy it.
We all love to share our riding areas, but if you are going to use someone else's work to make money while destroying my good time you will see some hate.
I honestly can't believe you are continuing to try to somehow justify obvious wrongs and shittiness.
Would you care if I rented out your garage to a couple of my homeless friends? I was just going to charge them like $20 a month. is that OK?
So? Someone owned the video, the map and the photos lifted from someone's website and used to promote your ride, and it wasn't you or any of your pals. Someone also owned the permit to hold a motorcycles event on the trails you conducted your ride on, and it wasn't you. Someone also owns the railroad property and tunnels that you rode on and through.
Why do I get this impression that ownership and things acquired through hard work only apply to your things and everything else is just there for the taking?
Geeze, are we seeing the entitlement mentality manifested in an older generation?
Do you know who gets blamed when someone sees a bunch of bikes riding across railroad property? That would be me, and every member of MRAN, and everyone who has enjoyed riding here. We used to be able to run races over railroad property just a couple years ago, but for some reason that changed. I am sure that is someone else's fault eh? Of course it isn't your problem, you don't need fucking permission to do anything.
Copyrighted, you don't care.
Permit needed, you don't care.
Permission needed, you don't care.
Thanks for putting on your national motorcycle awareness campaign tour. We really appreciate it.
BTW, my homeless friends will be moving in shortley, anything left in the garage will likely become there's, and I decided they don't need to pay rent. They can do whatever they like because I said so, they just have to promise not to tell anyone they are living there.
I'm planning to do the TAT in 2017 and trying to figure out what resource to use. I do want to go coast to coast so obviously I must use gpsKevin tracks between NC and TN. I plan to do a section between TN and AR this fall to prove bikes, gear, and skills for next year.
I don't have any problem compensating either party for their work, I just want to ride the best route possible. That said it would appear that I will need to purchase both map packs to make that work.
I've read through a lot of this thread and annoyingly a great portion is arguing who owns this information and who should be paid for it. I don't care, I'll give them both money for their work, a few hundred dollars is a small part of this experience.
Can anyone give me any advice on piecing together the two routes? Then maybe I'll start a website selling the "official real true TAT" (just kidding).
Thanks to both Sam and Kevin for making long haul dual sporting more available to the masses.
Just use a map program, or gazetteers, put your own track together. Sure some roads will not be there, some will be closed and you'll find roads that aren't mapped. But that's the adventure! I've heard so much BS about these two that I just plan to wing it. Anyway either is just a one-way track you'll need to wing it back to your start.