TAT - difference between Sam and gpsKevin

Discussion in 'Americas' started by emacs, Oct 9, 2013.

  1. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    You did them both?
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  2. Gish

    Gish Adventurer

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    Some feedback - 4 of us did the TAT this past summer following GPSKevins. Overall the route was good with very few detours required until later (Oregon was on fire so many roads were closed, we were expecting this)
    I would say though that the some sections of the route were quite difficult such as outside Moab near Green River (his section 35) that was Black Dragon pass. CO Imogene was difficult for us as well, but we also are brand new riders, we all only had a year 1/2 of riding experience before we tackled the TAT (bucketlist item) so that definitely added to the degree of difficulty.
    Thankfully 3 of us were on lighter WR250R's but one guy was on a big bike (CB500 Rally Raid) and had to bypass quite a few sections due to degree of difficulty. But be aware some of the Red sections and even parts of Blue are truly hard.
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  3. juno

    juno Long timer

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    I just did Sams most recent iteration of ID and OR (I picked up where I left off in AR).
    Compared to his older tracks he goes through OR a little further north than he did before.
    I was solo on a CB500x RR so I did a lot of detours because of being solo on a heavier bike and OR being on fire when I went through.
  4. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    Was thinking about your opinion, What is so much easier to follow?

    Is the route easier to follow? I-70 would be easy to follow where as an obscure single track could be very hard to follow. That doesn't make the easier one any better.

    Is his roll chart easier to follow like the instructions are more clear?

    Is his GPS Tracks easier to follow like adequate resolution where the other one is not adequate and don't exactly follow intersections?
  5. juno

    juno Long timer

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    Get to know your GPS and life gets easier. After much frustration I finally figured out a combo that works pretty well for me. On my Zumo 390 I make the track viewable on the map in a distinct color and also convert it to a trip so i have turn by turn instructions even in the middle of nowhere. That way even if the damn thing gets a little wonky on the turn by turn I just follow the track on the map and eventually everything comes back together again. I have used my Iphone as primary and back up using motion x gps. There are plenty of phone or GPS options out there so pick one that works for you and test it thoroughly to save time and aggravation on a trip.

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  6. sieg

    sieg Wearing out tires......2 at a time, day after day. Supporter

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    Yep that's the way to do it, a track and a route. You can have optional tracks in a different color on too. Like a hard option or a "to gas" or "to lunch" option.
  7. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    How do these comments have anything to do with either my questions for Biker, or Sam vs Kevin the topic of this thread?
  8. Cannonshot

    Cannonshot Having a Nice Time Administrator Super Moderator

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    We are not going to regress into any petty bickering in here. If you can't deal with the content, don't participate in the thread. I can help arrange that if need be.
  9. juno

    juno Long timer

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    I have the full TAT routes for both Kevin and Sam (and Kevins CDT routes) and have used both sets at different points. Both sets have easier to follow sections and harder to follow sections. There are many many turns on the eastern sections of both. Both sets of paper maps have pluses and minuses.
    The point I was trying to make is that I found that once I familiarized myself with my electronic devices and developed a methodology that worked for me they were both easier to follow. With the thousands of waypoints associated with each of the GPS tracks for either route once in a while you will find a few wacky points. My issues following either sets of routes were mostly self induced and pretty much went away once I developed my methodology and overall I didn't find either set more or less difficult to follow than the other.

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  10. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    I believe that Countdown was asking so he might use the input to make adjustments to how he does his routes. I understand how the answer was not what he was looking for, he just gets a little cranky/difficult at times.
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  11. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    Still waiting for Biker to explain how Kevin's (tracks, maps, or roll charts) are easier? Is one inadequate, is one just a little better?

    Yes I make roll charts and publish Tracks and would like to know perceived deficiencies in techniques.

    I put on a GPS only ride in September and learned a lot. Many riders missed turns from main road to obscure trail. Next year I will add waypoints on wrong way and on correct way but looking for any other techniques that work.
  12. wbbnm

    wbbnm Long timer

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    Did people miss the turn and turn around quickly or did they go for miles before realizing it. If it was the latter, they weren't paying any attention to their GPS and nothing would help.

    I don't think it would work to put such waypoints by every turn. Many would just mentally tune them out. But maybe a red flag at a few difficult turns would help.
  13. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    This is way off topic unless anything navigation is on topic.

    I had 2-3 cases. First this was in an OHV area with lots of close intersections.

    1st was a switchback trail I built to bypass user built Downhill that my ride needed to go up. The problem was mostly group-think, once the first rider missed the trail and tried to climb the downhill everyone followed into a cluster-f. I think only 1 group realized the error right away and went back to the trail. The trail then crossed the downhill at a point good riders could get to and they then turned onto the Track/trail.

    2nd one was a single track that was only few feet off to the side of a road. This one was riders just not zooming in enough.

    3rd one was a loop trail that went out and came back to rejoin the road only about 1/4 mile down. If you were zoomed out too far or just missed the turn, a minute later you were back on the Track and never knew you missed the trail.

    I am only putting waypoints at the tricky turns.
  14. juno

    juno Long timer

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    I understand better what you were looking for now. I had spots on both tracks where I missed turns, most were due to very closely related turns. Unfortunately I did not document them at the time so I can't give specific examples of why I missed the turn. In very few cases there were weird way points that kind of straightened a route a bit but that was pretty rare considering there are 10's of thousands of way points on a full TAT. Very good work by both of them.
    I can't fault the tracks as much as I can fault myself for missing the turns. Eventually I learned to pay better attention to looking forward to an upcoming turn.
    In areas such as the eastern sections where there are many turns and many parallel paved and unpaved tracks or out west when you approach an OHV area there are more opportunities to miss turns. I have no experience in creating tracks as detailed as these so I can't help you there.

    Edit: As I mentioned before, once I figured out how to turn a track into a route and could see the route and have turn by turn that warned my dumb ass I had a turn coming up I did a lot better. So maybe my point is you could build the best track in the world and I could still screw up a few turns. Maybe you had a few people like me on your ride????

  15. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    Juno,

    Sounds like you are quite new to Dual Sport GPS rides? Were you using the Roll Chart plus GPS?

    I promote many rides each year with many customers out in the west (CA & NV) NONE of our riders use Routes, they just use Tracks but they must be zoomed in to 0.2 or 800'. We don't "build" Tracks, we ride the course and record Tracks and then give riders with new gen units actual active log but must filter tracks to 500 points per Track for old gen units.

    In the past we used Roll Charts but now many are GPS only.

    Jerry
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  16. juno

    juno Long timer

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    I took a long break from dual sports for a number of years, before GPS, and have only done about 13000 miles of DS rides in 16 states the last 3 years on these 'canned' trips, so yes you could say I am new to GPS 'off road'.
    I have very little positive experience with roll charts so choose not to use them as most of my rides are 2000 miles or more, typically involving many reroutes for weather, natural disasters and road construction and I am usually under some sort of time pressure. These are journeys for me with side trips to take in local attractions and I like looking around and not concentrating on an odometer.
    As I have said, I prefer to use tracks and tracks converted to trips (routes) simultaneously as my Zumo will do it and with the Lifetime Maps it is very rare I do come across a road that Garmin has not mapped on these trips and it works best for me. I do not do any single track as I am usually solo, on a bigger bike and far from home so most of the tracks are on known roads of some type.
    Living in SFL I have no real opportunity/desire to create my own tracks as I only do a few organized DS rides a year in state as I find riding in DEEP sand uninspiring.
    I don't know of many people who have not missed turns on any of the long DS rides out there, BDR's, CDT's, TAT's, TET's etc, so I am not alone in that.
    You do bring out a good point about zooming though. It is very rare that I would zoom in to 800' as it is typically unnecessary on my trips. My back up is my Iphone 6+ with Motion X GPS and I usually have that zoomed out further than my Zumo. I can also zoom that in much quicker with a finger pinch when necessary.
    I have found that a lot of folks using Sam's or Kevin routes have less or about the same experience I do with navigating these long trips so typically my comments on my experiences are more about my foibles, learning curve and general methods that work for me.

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  17. DesertGoat

    DesertGoat Adventurer

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    Hi all, about to get Sam’s gps files for my Montana, the question is I would like to get the maps without the rolling charts as I’m not going to use them, I’m going solo so for planning purposes I want the paper maps with me. Any advice on the purchasing options of his website? Should I choose the 2 items separately or the files come with maps? Thanks and much appreciate your help in the subject.
  18. seasider

    seasider Just a rider

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    Good question for me as well. ?..........
  19. sieg

    sieg Wearing out tires......2 at a time, day after day. Supporter

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    Sam would know.
  20. WhicheverAnyWayCan

    WhicheverAnyWayCan Deaf Biker

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    If I am not mistaken, I think that map(s) comes with the roll chart. But it is a black and white copies, and it will help you find where you are in case you are using map on cellular or on map book to find where you are.