Tenere 700 suspension info

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by Motociclo, May 30, 2020.

  1. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

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    Here is a bit of info for you T7 owners.
    I will build on it as i do more.

    Spring rates.
    I have calculated these. They are very close to what a tuner would offer up.
    Each range will give plenty of scope.
    If you are a big luggage carrier, or planning to jump triples!!, the high end of each range would be fine.
    Each will get a good rider sag. Static sag gets some air time, but i am not as concerned with static, as i don't care much how a bike handles when i'm not on it.

    These are base on stock installed preloads for each end.
    Forks, 13mm no adjustment.
    Shock, 14mm, +10mm of adjustment. You get 0.4mm of additional preload per click.

    I have installed a set if hicalibre brand fork springs in a T7, they are 5mm shorter than stock, 418mm vs 423mm stock. This is fine, still get 8mm of installed preload. More than adequate. Shim it if concerned.

    Same bike, installed a Eibach shock spring.
    It is only 225mm long, compared to the stock 240mm. There is a spacer used to make the gap up. It gives 10mm of installed preload vs stock if 14mm.
    In any case, if you use a long spring, you will need less adjuster preload on shock. As for forks, I would go back one rate.
    Ktech quote they're springs in N/mm. This is the correct way. But for continuity, i have converted they're numbers to kg/mm.

    Accepted ideal rider sag,
    Forks, 53 to 63mm, 25 to 30%
    Shock, 60 to 66mm, 30 to 33%.

    Static sag if you like, 10 to 30mm.
    Don't sweat it if it just out side these figures. It will have minimal difference. We're not pro MX riders!!!


    Forks,
    Stock, 0.57kg/mm.

    70 to 80kg, 0.57 to 0.60kg/mm
    80 to 90 , 0.60 to 0.65
    90 to 100, 0.64 to 0.67
    100 to 110, 0.66 to 0.69
    110 to 120, 0.68 to 0.71.

    Fork spring options.
    Ktech, 0.61 to 0.70kg rates. 425mm long.
    Hicalibre, 0.55 to 0.65kg rates. 420mm quoted. I measured 418mm.
    Race Tech, not sure as yet.


    Shock,
    Stock. 6.95kg/mm.

    70 to 80 kg, 6.95 to 8.3kg/mm
    80 to 90, 8.4 to 8.7
    90 to 100, 8.8 to 9.1
    100 to 110, 9.2 to 9.5
    110 to 120, 9.6 to 9.9.

    Shock spring options.
    Ktech, 7.6 to 9.7kg, 245mm long.
    Hicalibre, 7.5 to 9kg, 242mm long.
    Eibach, various rated, 225mm. Needs a spacer.
    Rally Raid, 8.2 to 9.7kg, 235mm long. Straight up fit. Good option. Only 10mm of installed preload.
    Race Tech, 5524 spring, 7.1 to 9.6kg. 240mm long. There are lighter rates than 7.1, but not worth noting.

    The owner of this T7 weighs around 105kg geared up. His bike has crash bars and a bash plate. Set up with about half a tank.
    Springs used, 0.65 in forks and 9kg Eibach on shock.
    With 8mm preload on forks, rider sag comes in at 59mm.
    Rear sag, remembering this shock spring only has 10mm installed preload,(vs 14mm stock), plus 5mm from adjuster, comes in 56mm.
    28% sag front and rear. Will take a couple clicks out of preload on shock, will settle near 60mm.

    If using the above spring rate guide, can certainly go down a weight range with out any ill effects. Will still get plenty adequate rider sag.


    Weight distribution.
    As best as i could weigh this rocket, this what i got.
    Unladen, 48/52.
    With rider, 44/56.

    The rider weight split is 36/64.


    Valving.
    Here are stock shim stacks.


    Forks,
    Comp,
    16x0.10,(5)
    12x0.10
    16x0.10
    14x0.10
    12x0.15
    10x0.15

    Rebound,
    16x0.10,(5)
    10x0.10
    16x0.10,
    14x0.10
    12x0.10
    10x0.10
    8x0.10


    Shock,
    Comp,
    34x0.15, (9)
    32x0.15
    30x0.15
    28x0.15
    26x0.15
    24x0.15
    22x0.15
    16x0.70.

    Rebound,
    30x0.20, (8)
    28x0.20
    26x0.20
    24x0.20
    22x0.20
    20x0.20
    16x0.70.

    The shock comp adjuster is like a high speed comp adjuster. It uses a preloaded spring and check plate to control flow through adjuster.
    The oil being controlled is only oil displaced by the shock shaft as it enters the shock body. This equals only 15ml of oil total.
    As for other damping adjusters, they will work most effectively in first third of adjustment range starting from hard. Not to say there is no effect past that range, it just won't be as noticable or effective.



    After a bit of testing, the owner of this T7 is pretty happy with new valving and springs.

    Rider weight, ready to roll, 105kg.

    Forks.
    0.65kg springs.
    Comp, Started at 6 clicks from hard, ended up at 9.
    Good compliance, can handle a reasonable jump. Still a heavy bike to jump. My focus was more on alround performance.

    17x0.15,(4)
    16x0.10
    10x0.10
    16x0.10
    14x0.10
    12x0.10
    9x0.30


    Rebound.
    Started at 10 from hard, finished at 8.
    17x0.15,(4)
    9x0.10
    16
    12
    9x0.30

    Shock.
    9kg spring.
    Gas pressure 180psi.
    Was surprised how little it needed to get it better.

    Comp.
    Adjuster started at 9 from hard. Seems ok.
    34x0.15, (9)
    32x0.15
    30x0.15
    28x0.15
    26x0.15
    24x0.15
    22x0.15
    20x0.30,(2). The only changed shim.
    This is called the clamp shim. Arguably most important shim in stack. It controls overall stiffness of stack. This is all i found it needed.
    Will continue to test to make sure.

    Rebound.
    Started at 17 from hard. Still working on where it needs to be. But will only be a few clicks either way.
    30x0.20, (8)
    28x0.20
    26x0.20
    24x0.20
    22x0.20
    20x0.20
    18x0.30, (2). Only shim changed. Read above comment.





    Valving options.
    I have put together sracks that require minimal shim changes. Are they perfect? No. But in 99.99% of cases, these stacks will be plenty adequate and provide a very good ride.

    Forks.
    Fork stacks all based on 5wt oil

    70 to 90kg. Stock 0.57 to 0.60kg springs.
    These do cover a broad range.For comp, If wanting firmer rider, add a 17x0.15 shim. Softer, take out a 17x0.15 shim.

    Rebound.
    Adjuster, start at 8 clicks from hard. 6 to 10 is about where it will be.
    17x0.15, (3)
    10x0.10
    16x0.10
    12x0.10
    9x0.30

    Comp,
    Adjuster, start at 9 clicks from hard. 6 to 12 is usable range.

    17x0.15,(3)
    10x0.10
    16x0.10
    14x0.10
    12x0.15
    10x0.15




    90 to 110kg option.
    Rebound,
    based on 0.64 to 0.67 springs.
    Adjuster, start at 8 clicks from hard. 6 to 10 is about where it will be.
    17x0.15, (4)
    10x0.10
    16x0.10
    12x0.10
    9x0.30

    Comp,
    Adjuster, start at 9 clicks from hard. 6 to 12 is usable range.
    if wanting a bit firmer, add 1 to 2 of the 17x0.10 shims, softer, take out the 17x0.10 shim. if wanting much softer, leave 17x0.10 in place, and remove a 17x0.15 shim.

    17x0.15,(3)
    17x0.10
    10x0.10
    16x0.10
    14x0.10
    12x0.15
    10x0.15


    110kg plus.
    Rebound,
    based on 0.70 springs.
    Adjuster, start at 8 clicks from hard. 6 to 10 is about where it will be.

    17x0.15, (4)
    10x0.10

    16x0.10
    12x0.10
    9x0.30


    Comp,
    Adjuster, start at 9 clicks from hard. 6 to 12 is usable range.
    if wanting a bit firmer, add 1 to 2 of the 17x0.10 shims OR a another 17x0.15 shim.
    Softer, take out the 17x0.10 shim. if wanting much softer, leave 17x0.10 in place, and remove a 17x0.15 shim.


    17x0.15,(3)
    17x0.10,(2)
    10x0.10
    16x0.10
    14x0.10
    12x0.15
    10x0.15





    Shock valving options.
    Gas pressure for all, 180psi.
    Oil, these stacks are based on Motul 2.5wt oil.
    CSt 16.1@40c, 6.2@100c.
    Maxima 3wt is very close.
    When choosing shock oil a viscosity index, VI over 300 is important. Shocks work pretty hard, less than 300 and oil will degrade pretty quick.
    Here is some info, not mine, on shock and fork oils.

    http://www.peterverdone.com/wiki/index.php?title=Suspension_Fluid

    Stock shock valving, with stock spring is good for the 70 to 80kg rider range.
    Doesn't appear to need any work.
    If your in thus range, and want shock firmer, only need to change out clamp shim.
    Stock is 16x0.70, go up to a 17x0.30,(2).
    Start comp clicker at 8 from hard.

    34x0.15, (9)
    32x0.15
    30x0.15
    28x0.15
    26x0.15
    24x0.15
    22x0.15
    17x0.30,(2), new.

    Rebound is fine with stock spring.


    80 to 90kg.
    based on 8 to 8.5kg spring.
    Started at 114 from hard. Still working on where it needs to be. But will only be a few clicks either way.
    Rebound,
    30x0.20, (8)
    28x0.20
    26x0.20
    24x0.20
    22x0.20
    20x0.20
    17x0.30,(2), new.

    Comp,
    Start at 9 clicks from hard. Adjust to taste
    34x0.15, (9)
    32x0.15
    30x0.15
    28x0.15
    26x0.15
    24x0.15
    22x0.15
    20x0.15, new.
    17x0.30,(2), new.


    90 to 110kg and 110kg plus
    Use 9kg spring in the 90 to 110kg range, 9.5kg in 110kg plus.
    Comp.
    Adjuster started at 9 from hard, adjust to taste.
    34x0.15, (9)
    32x0.15
    30x0.15
    28x0.15
    26x0.15
    24x0.15
    22x0.15
    20x0.30,(2) new.


    Rebound.
    based on 9kg spring. Could use 9.5kg without issues.
    Started at 14 from hard. Still working on where it needs to be. But will only be a few clicks either way.
    30x0.20, (8)
    28x0.20
    26x0.20
    24x0.20
    22x0.20
    20x0.20
    18x0.30,(2) new.




    Fork oil level.
    Measured with springs out, 100mm from top, forks collapsed.
    New springs use thicker wire, will displace a little more oil. As springs only are partially submerged, 100 to 105mm oil level would be fine.

    Miscellaneous stuff.
    I am looking into if the schrader type bladder cap from YZ85 shock will be a good replacement for the needle type on the T7.
    They share similar dimensions, bith caps 40mm, just need to ensure it doesn't send end of bladder into the shock.

    This will be a works in progress. Will update as i get more info.
    It won't be as detaled as Africa twin data base, i don't think that is needed.

    20200526_202636.jpg
    20200526_202506.jpg

    With Eibach spring and spacer. Rebound adjuster on shock should be facing this side. Needs to be turned 180 in this pic.
    20200528_130600.jpg
    #1
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  2. strongleftleg

    strongleftleg Party Guy Supporter

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    Absolutely brilliant, thank you!
    #2
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  3. BygDaddee

    BygDaddee Where do I get a pie

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    Can you add in what you measured stock spring rates at for comparison
    #3
  4. Gedrog

    Gedrog 1000 mile stare a 1000 stories to tell

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  5. Chalk

    Chalk Been here awhile

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    Hi hopefully this info is useful and not going to confuse anyone.
    All of the measurements and conclusions have been done on my bike with between 3500/4500 miles mostly two up and loaded.
    Front fork length with no load 241mm
    Front fork length static sag. 196mm.
    Front fork length 95kg rider. 182mm.
    Conclusion standard springs don’t have enough preload to achieve 10% static sag but when you add the rider they only move14mm. Therefore they are to stiff as they are a linear spring.

    on disassembly the springs measured 425mm
    I replaced them for a set of Hyperpro progressive springs ( only ones available when I was doing this last year)

    front fork length with no load. 241mm
    Front fork length static sag 200mm
    Front fork length 95kg rider. 177mm

    I don’t like progressive springs but they are a slight improvement over stock
    As for valving, it’s a personal thing but I think rebound is about Right but compression needs work, I’m 3 clicks off max.
    For me the fork PDS is super harsh and needs work, I know Rally Raid have done work to sort this but can’t see any kits on the website yet.

    Rear spring rates all this is two up With 25kgs off luggage and adding in the weight of the rack panniers and frames centre stand etc. Total is just under 188kgs
    85Nm spring max preload you can’t get anything like the right rear sag, but for a 95 kg rider It’s good
    90mm spring max preload gats 55mm sag with bike rider and pillion but is marginal when you add the luggage
    95Nm spring I can get 30% rear sag with rider pillion and luggage and still have some preload adjustment.
    The only trade off for me is the static sag is wrong but as we use this bike for travel I’m happy to live with the extra seat height.
    The ride is firm one up but two up it’s great, hope this help people when they are trying to sort bits out.
    I will be very interested to see how the fork valve work goes
    #5
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  6. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

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    There is no PDS in forks. There is an oil lock that slows the last 20mm, there abouts, of travel. Short of removing the oil lock, there is no real tuning for them. It helps with bottoming forks.
    If forks feel harsh, either they are blowing through stroke too quick or you have far too much rebound dialed in.

    You can add more preload, but that is only a band aid. Higher rate spring with less preload will give a better ride. Static sag will be greater than 10%, but typically, anywhere between 5 and 15% is ok. I don't bother with static sag in general. Heavy adventure bikes will rarely get inside that 10% range. Myself, don't really care to much how bike handles when not on it. Rider sag far more important.

    I do share same views on progressive springs, don't like them and don't use them.
    Linear rate springs for given weight and a revalve far better option.

    Stock fork comp not to bad, but needs work.
    Rebound on forks and shock for stock springs does ok.

    Looks like your rider sag from stock to hyperpro springs increased. My experience with hyperpro springs is they are usually longer than stock springs, more installed preload. They are clearly softer rate initially.
    #6
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  7. Chalk

    Chalk Been here awhile

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    OK my bad use of the term PDS, if you machine it to increase the clearance it will alter the way it works.

    The Hyperpro springs were shorter than the Yamaha ones, but like I said this was September last year lots more information about now.
    #7
  8. Greg the pole

    Greg the pole There are no stupid questions, only stupid people

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    Nice work as always Sean!
    #8
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  9. BygDaddee

    BygDaddee Where do I get a pie

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    Nice work, theres plenty of suspension tuning work going on and all have some slight different opinions but its nice to see it start to get documented for comparisons.
    Mines out getting revalved and resprung at the moment and pretty much inline with your tables, except your fork spring rates seem a little stiffer for rider weight compared to some.

    #9
  10. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

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    There always is a chronic lack of detail on suspension.
    If i can help someone who wants or can do it themselves, thats all i am trying to do.
    There are many ways of achievi g the same thing indeed.
    What spring rates for your weight are you using?
    #10
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  11. BygDaddee

    BygDaddee Where do I get a pie

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    I'm just over 101 -102kg dressed in my riding gear, I only want the bike set up for light loads of spares, 80% of the time the bike will be day rides of medium pace and gentle terrain, I prefer my bikes plush and only ever aim to set my adventure bike suspension up for the 80% of riding I do, I'm happy to live with some shortfalls for the 20% as no adventure bike set up can be perfect for all occassions.

    I'm getting the 6kg fork springs
    and an 8.5kg shock spring

    and revalves of course, all done by someone who's done a few now, and is giving me a slightly softer valving then he has on a couple of others who are more aggressive given my requirement above.

    #11
  12. IDAHOSPUD

    IDAHOSPUD Adventurer

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    Anyone have that actual dimensions of the stock fork & shock springs. The inside diameter and the free spring length. I think the shock spring is 55mm ID X 240mm free length. I am trying to get some measurements in order get the proper springs. looking for springs for 140kg total rider and luggage load.
    #12
  13. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

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    Answer your question with a question.
    Whats your weight with out luggage?
    Even if your 120kg solo, the above spring is plenty adequate. Add preload to cater for the luggage.
    Stock fork springs are 423mm long and 28mm ID, frim memory.
    #13
  14. IDAHOSPUD

    IDAHOSPUD Adventurer

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    130kg without luggage. I think I will have to have the rear spring custom made. I could not find a spring greater then 95nm over the counter. Very little info out there that I could find.
    #14
  15. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

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    95N or 9.7kg would be plenty.
    Ktech make one. It would give you adequate sag with a bit to spare. It does have more installed preload than stock. 14mm stock, 19mm Ktech. You don't need a custom spring front or rear.
    Get the Ktech highest options for each end, you will be fine.

    Edit, Estimated sag with your weight, no luggage using Ktech 95n spring would be around 55 to 60mm, with no adjuster used. That would give plenty of scope for luggage.
    #15
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  16. IDAHOSPUD

    IDAHOSPUD Adventurer

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    Thanks for the advice. I did not see Ktech before
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  17. IDAHOSPUD

    IDAHOSPUD Adventurer

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    My local suspension shop needs the oem spring dimensions to get me some ordered. K-tech is out of stock. Anybody have the specs. Even the the Yamaha shop does not have the specs, or a spring upgrade for the T700. Odd that they would underspring the bike and then not have anything to upgrade for heavier riders.
    #17
  18. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

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    38mmOD x 423mm spring will fit fork.
    55mm ID x 240mm spring for shock.

    Undersrung bike and no factory option is normal. I don't recall any oem, shorrt of maybe KTM, that offer spring upgrades. Always aftermarket.
    #18
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  19. IDAHOSPUD

    IDAHOSPUD Adventurer

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    Very much appreciate your help. Looking forward to this bike. Thanks
    #19
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  20. Motociclo

    Motociclo Long timer

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    Updated with new stacks.
    Will add more later.
    #20
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