The Africa Twin CRF1000L Owners' Thread

ABS I agree initializes after initial fwd velocity. TC needs none to initialize.

TC (Torque Control) is initiated at zero speed (velocity)
Can't tell from your video if the engine fueling and ignition cuts are active - on ice with ZERO traction, the rear wheel speed would have drop to zero = engine stall which is not realistic.
Did you try wide open throttle? I suspect you would not hit redline on the tach.

Not true

Here are the HSTC (Honda Selectable Torque Control ) algorithms.
Works from zero forward speed immediately after bike start.
Try it on an uphill loose gravel start, then try it on a loose gravel forest service road at speed.
You need to turn TC OFF to get started on a rocky (baby head size rocks) uphill, else TC will cut in just as you try to step up on the pegs - and you will sit paddling forever like a NUBIE.
TC on level 2 on a fast gravel forest service road at speed will prevent you from excessive rear wheel spin and a crash if you are a novice.
TC OFF on a fast FSR is great for huge power slides :)

just turn it off - no fuse to pull

see above post for the algorithm
all it takes is divergence between front and rear wheel speed.
if front wheel speed is zero, then any rear wheel speed will initiate TC - unless it is turned off.

I seen a a guy that sold a switch that turned it off completely but after riding the bike awhile it's 2cd nature to hit the flapper switch.Guessing it did the same thing as pulling the fuse.

original post on the algorithms is here.
#15520

Exactly the info I have been seeking! Thanks

I like your statement. You say "zero forward velocity" and, to me, it implies velocity of the bike. You also are probably correct that it initializes at zero, I am not certain, so will not argue. But, as you say, it detects a difference in wheel speed. So, for a difference to exist, the rear wheel has to spin. If the rear wheel spins, it's not at zero speed anymore. Again, you seem to differentiate between the bike's speed and wheel rotation, that's why I like your explanation.

Cheers

Finding this from 15 months ago, but no follow-up.

Obvious questions. Did the 19" do good things for cornering / handling on pavement? Enough so it was worth doing?

The trade off in the dirt . . . how does it handle there?

I can't imagine you can use the stock tone ring. Were you somehow able to recalibrate the computer to compensate for the difference in tire diameter . . . or did you calculate out a new tone ring to adjust?

Its easy to suppose a whole new bunch of tires became available, with 19". That alone might make the swap interesting. What did you try?

Did you have to lower the rear 1" to balance? If so, you must have lost an inch of ground clearance.

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I don't agree.
I've watched a video of several pretty well done tests by a professional level rider who shows that the traction control is actually fantastic in the scenario you're describing. It makes it much easier for him to get going on the hill climb when he's otherwise burying the rear wheel without it.
In the really loose glacial moraine that we have here, starts with TC are much easier in keeping you from burying the bike than without it. And its actually pretty challenging to prevent going down to the axle on steep starts in this super soft stuff.
At first I was annoyed by it. But if you set macho rooster tails aside (which nobody wants to do lol), it is very good at doing wht its designed to. Digging out a bike loaded for offroad touring (so 600lbs or so) while solo is not something I want to have to do.

Are you able to take a video of the dashboard in that same scenario?

IIRC the traction control light is extinguished at ~4mph and the ABS light at 6mph on my bike. It might only intervene once you go past that theshold.

For kicks I’ll try it again this weekend and try to film the dash as well. Driveway has plenty of slippery stuff on it. Keep in mind that was ice under the snow. Way more slippery than gravel.

I had to put my CS hat back on and think about it (and it gave me a headache - I'm so done with that stuff).

All computer speed detection on the ATAS is on the front wheel right? For DCT purposes, there are "0" and "not 0" speed states for various functions. For N->D DCT engagement, you must be in state "0" ... and for D/M->N disengagement you must also be in state "0" (additional states of side-stand "down" & "not down" and "idle" & "not idle" rpms, etc. also apply here in the logic too).

Put it up on a stand (with a beer buddy or two to hang on to the thing with ya) with front tire in the air and spin spin it while making the rear go faster, I betcha TC will come to life ...

I also think this is part of the reason that anti-lock on the front cannot be overridden ... you know how the DCT furiously downshifts to 1st from higher gears in both D/M mode when you come to an abrupt stop? Now think about what would happen if you locked up the front end with a handful of anti-lock disabled brake while still at speed ... what would the DCT start doing when the computer tells it "you are now at a complete stop"?

Will the DCT even function with an anti-lock fault over a certain mph or does it go into limp mode?

Good finite state automatas to ya!

A couple of things delayed this project. I spent most of 2018 in New Mexico working on a 'fixer upper' house. I didn't have my AT with me. I had sent my forks to Cogent Dynamics and they used them to science out the process of hard anodizing the inside of the tubes. That process took months but I didn't care since I wasn't going to be getting any riding in anyway. It turned out that doing the hard anodizing was not practical or cost effective so Cogent pulled the plug on the project - but mine did get the coating. Now I owe @NC Rick big time for all his hard work - which I've partially paid back by sending him a 790cc big bore kit for his DR650.

Anyway, I got the bike back together only in time to get a couple of rides in before the cold, wet Oregon weather moved in.

Yes! I've done 19" conversions on my DR650 and KTM990 Adventure.

I don't pretend that my AT is a 'dirt bike' but it does see plenty of gravel roads and Jeep trails. The 19 gives up very little to the 21 and it's worth it to me to have more connected feedback from the front end. Based on my experience with other bikes where you give up the most with a 19 is in deep sand or deep loose gravel. It isn't because of the smaller diameter but because the wider tire gets more 'side leverage' to fight your steering inputs.

So far the original ring works fine. The rolling diameter is only about 5% less than the 21. I haven't been able to detect any different behavior in the TC or ABS but I really need some better weather and a lot more riding to fully test in more conditions. I did work up a design for a matching tone ring if I find it necessary.

Currently running a Motoz Tractionator Adventure 110/80-19. You are right, there is a huge variety of tires available in 19"

The difference in tire diameter is less than you'd think. Because the 110/80 tire is bigger in profile the height difference at the axle is only about 0.7 of an inch. I had already installed a Kouba lowering link but at the same time as doing the wheel swap I installed stiffer springs front and rear. In the end I don't think I've really lost any significant amount of ground clearance over stock. I haven't shortened the side stand and it still leans on the stand about the same as original.

@97707 You are not that far away. Come over the mountain some time and take it for a spin.

Do you have a picture of this front wheel set up? If you have already posted one in this thread just let me know and I can search your posts for it. Thanks.

The 19" tire is too wide to fit inside the stock fender so a high fender relocation is required.

Thanks for the reply. Good stuff.

Improved feel on the hard makes sense. And giving up not much, except when climbing over logs and bumps, makes sense.

Worse in deep sand is the opposite of what I would have thought. Assuming you'd go to a wider tire than what is generally available in 21", it seems the bigger contact patch would let the front end float up on top of the sand better . . . instead of burying in it like the skinny tire does.

Not sure I'm getting the 'side leverage' concept. Seems like what would resist your steering inputs is the added friction at the bigger contact point. In which case a steering damper probly wouldn't help much . . . or does it? Have you experimented with dampening?

That's surprising, the original tone ring works. So now the speedo / odo are reading 5% over, but ABS still behaves. That makes the swap a whole lot easier than I would have guessed. I wonder if just masking 5% of the holes would bring the accuracy back to par?

Probly not a lot of people have done this swap, so there isn't much feedback on different tires. Results are subjective anyway, but it'd be good to find what the best choices are.

You installed the Kouba to adjust for the smaller front wheel . . . or some other reason? Its seems reasonable to expect going to the 19" without adjusting the rear height might affect steering / handling in some unpredictable way. The link install was simple?

I get to Eugene a couple times a year. Careful what you offer . . . I might take you up on it.

Likewise, I'm sure you know we have some good riding over this side. Permanent invite, just drop a note.

BTW, have you done anything to the power, or left it stock?

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The wider tire isn't nearly enough wider to achieve much meaningful flotation. It buries in just as much as the narrower tire. The wider tire *will* get up on top of the sand a little better but it's not enough. If lets say you have to go 40mph to get your 21 to plane on top of the sand the 19 might do it at 36mph. When riding in deep sand I find the friction of the sand tries to pull the bike left and right. A wider tire gives the sand more leverage to steer the tire in a direction you don't want it to go.

These effects are not BIG. Just enough to be noticeable.

I'm sure the holes have to be evenly spaced to give the correct signal. I also figure there has to be enough wiggle room in the system to allow for tire wear and changes in inflation pressure. You could certainly change the rolling radius by a significant amount by lowering the aor pressure for traction.

I had already installed the link to lower the seat height. It was an easy swap.
All things being equal, I prefer the sharper handling of a bike with the front lower than delivered by the factory. I have yet to own a bike that wasn't improved by steepening the front geometry by a degree or even more. As a rule of thumb a one inch height change at one end changes the rake by one degree.

All stock, I'm happy with the power delivery.

Good answers. Thanks.

If you've tried a damper, did it improve handling in the rocks and ruts? Enough to justify the bother?

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