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The best rebuttal to EM skeptics

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by ctromley, Dec 18, 2018.

  1. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    The cabin is out "near" Eagar (well east of Pinetop on the map) and seldom more than an overnighter up there... electricity is dear since it's off the grid and not always available... Well aware of 120V option for EV's but it's too far off any "real" roads to get stranded but I suppose we could bring a generator... I've got one of those very cute honda 2000W units - but dang, that sort of seems counter to the whole point of being out in the secluded backcountry and a big part of EV philosophy at the same time... when we go up we might spend five minutes to top off and grab ice in show-low

    I don't care about the charging stations outside the city since we're almost certainly never spending enough time for charging at any of those locations - they aren't where our destinations are and aren't likely any place we really want to spend more than five minutes at regardless... perhaps if they passed a law saying that a requirement for all charging locations is they must serve alcohol [at "normal" prices]? Maybe hookers too and I might sign up... Ar, ar, just kidding...


    How much $$$ for that 200mi range car? 200mi at 20% stop and go and 80% 85mph - not some optimal marketing garbage driving at 45mph steady that has little bearing on how we really drive. Still wouldn't come close to satisfy the weekend recreation requirements but if cheap enough for around town it gets more compelling although hard to see since we still need a vehicle for our weekends and touring... if I could do electric for around town it may make a long term economic argument for the second weekend vehicle since it wouldn't get the depreciation from the local wear and tear that the electric would cover....
  2. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP . Supporter

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    Then that would not be a good use case of an EV for you. Don't buy one. :shrug:

    That was largely irrelevant, but again, if you really think an EV wouldn't work for you, don't buy one. :shrug:

    The prices are easily found. USD$30,000-$40,000 will buy you a new electric car with a real range of 200 miles on a charge; used models are less.
    If you don't believe an EV will match up well with your endless list of possibilities, don't buy one. :shrug:


    So I'll ask you again: "Why do you continue to harp on these imagined points of contention?"

    If you don't think an EV will work for your next tour of the local Lagrange points, or your out-of-country grocery trips, or as a tow vehicle for your 5th wheel trailer, don't buy one. Unlike orbital mechanics, this really isn't rocket science.
    MJSfoto1956, pretbek and voltsxamps like this.
  3. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

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    I provided a link to a used mid range Tesla. That is fairly close to a Bolt price although the non Premium Bolt (not losing much) can be had for probably new $30k or lower with all of the incentives. Can get used ones for even less. There is also the Kia Kona and others out there with some solid >200 mile range also.
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  4. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

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    Sometimes I feel like I should just take your tact. It really gets tiresome going round and round :norton on these same damn points. Also gets tiresome pointing out how I've been there and not once has range been a problem.
  5. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP . Supporter

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    I'm still waiting to see the quotes from someone in this thread demanding that everyone goes electric today, or ever.

    The endless what-iffers tend to compile lists that are similar in tone to the endless reasons not to get a motorcycle.
    "Too much this. Not enough that. I heard this. I remember back in '83 that ... Yadda yadda yadda socialism."
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  6. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    I just answer to the posts... I suppose if I quote every time I respond then you'll understand which ones I'm responding to... I thought it was obvious

    The title of this thread is "The best rebuttal to EM skeptics" - clearly I'm a skeptic (I'm sort of skeptical about everything).. I still haven't heard that good rebuttal yet...

    Many times people post on this board about how some "new technology" is going to make EV's change the world in the next year or two... Sometimes I respond, sometimes no..

    There are a few posts about how the world will end without adopting EV today and there are others that go just as far in the opposite and even suggest EV's will do more harm - ok maybe I'm a bit hyperbolic but there are those posts about the horrors of both


    I like my electric bikes a lot and think they fit into my space very well... I was an early adopter getting into nearly five years ago and said more than a few times that the electric bike thing would take on the bicycle world like a tsunami... I've watched it happen although they are still a bit expensive for a lot of people and so it seems skewed to older more financially secure folks which is expected... When I first got into it the LBS guys would so obviously get very condescending so that I quit telling them my bikes were electric... within a year or so they most all accepted the reality... The first year I was riding mine I saw almost none, now I see them all the time...


    So now, what is the "The best rebuttal to EM skeptics"? :ear
  7. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP . Supporter

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    The best rebuttal to you is to ask for specificity. Rather than relying on hyperbole, just use quotes and respond directly to them. It's simple enough that even I can do it.

    No one in this thread supports making any kind of EV mandatory for everyone. Repeatedly coming up with all sorts of tortured logic about how one wouldn't work in this or that situation is meaningless, and here's why: No one here believes an EV will work in every scenario - not even close. Actually, the more positive posts have routinely qualified their views by stating that EVs aren't a good fit for some scenarios. As I said, if you don't want one for any reason, don't buy one. Just because you have real or imagined reasons to skip an EV doesn't mean they aren't working for others.

    As has been said, EVs can and do work quite well for some people. Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone in this thread trying to force anyone to use an EV of any kind, or saying that an EV is always preferable to an ICE equivalent. Arguing otherwise is arguing against reality. If I'm wrong, please bring some quotes from this thread to the table.
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  8. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    When did I [or anyone] say that someone did?

    I did say that there are those that portray doom and gloom if we don't - e.g. from this thread:

    Your "rebuttals" aren't working
  9. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP . Supporter

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    If you want to do this, please do it right. Quote someone properly (in full, or with the quote link included) so their entire post can be reviewed. Context matters.

    You've constantly theorized all sorts of reasons why an electric car won't work for you, even after a link was posted to an electric car that would satisfy many of your requirements. No one has said that you have to buy one, or that they will work for everyone in all scenarios. No one has said that the world will end if you don't buy one. As I keep saying, don't buy one. The companies will survive without you on their customer list, as will the world.

    And after all of that, I still haven't seen a clear answer to my question:"Why do you continue to harp on these imagined points of contention?" Being a skeptic doesn't mean going on and on about why something is wrong - when no one is claiming otherwise.
    MJSfoto1956 likes this.
  10. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Long time listener.. first time poster..

    I’ve actually never bothered to read a single post in this thread since it was started sometime last year iirc.. honestly never had interest as I didn’t feel that a “best rebuttal to EM skeptics” exists.

    The first post I’ve read was SteveAZ’s post from yesterday 11:40 and the few that followed. I’m not interested in reading any of the previous pages.. and rather than post a “one-rebuttle solves all” I’d like to agree with both Steve and Zoomer P’s points..

    That is not to say that I don’t think it’s viable for SteveAZ for get an affordable 200+ mile range EV (you can buy a used Model S for $20,000 in California - I’ll post the link if anyone is interested) nor do I disagree with nor invalidate SteveAZ’s non-use scenarios.

    Point is this, the title of this thread is clickbait and serves to create a divide; one side proposing worse case scenarios (Steve’s remote cabin that may not have reliable electricity) and the other best case scenarios (as I just did with the used 20k Model S)

    These scenarios both exist and are also both unlikely for most people.

    Rather than going in circles as Cararact2 mentioned (and inevitable when whenever the title suggests a “cure all answer to skepticism”) there should be a thread title that isn’t so polarizing and one that invites discussion from those who aren’t sure it will work for them but curious enough to inquire, and from those who are knowledgeable on the subject and patient and open minded enough to seek to understand what the concerns are and address them.

    Blanket statements from either extreme case scenarios aren’t going to bridge the gap. Education and advocacy will but it has to come from a good place rather than from some examples that Steve provided (doomsday, works for me, get with program, etc.)

    I’ll say it again.. I don’t disagree with either of you and feel that each of you make valid points. What I appreciate most from both of you is that you are having a civil discussion and being respectful while contending one point or another.

    Like I said, I wasn’t planning on ever opening up this thread as I didn’t think it was going to contain much other than arguments from two sides going in circles (apparently just from this posts on this page alone, my prediction appears to be true) but since I was caught up on reading just about everything else in this sub forum, I figured I’d visit the dusty corner of this thread.. and glad I did for one reason:

    It’s clear to me that threads with titles like this don’t help, and come off pretentious from the start.. so no surprise it attracts and creates arguments.. it’s human nature to be right when your heels are dug in and feeling the need to defend our previous points even if a valid argument had been shared as a “best rebuttal” from either side.

    I’m not going to make any other posts in this thread as I do not wish to perpetuate the silliness of right and wrong scenarios but will instead create a thread separate from this one whose title hopefully encourages a more open discussion of what works and what doesn’t. Each person has a different perspective so we’re all going to start from different points of view. The reason a forum exists in the first place is to share thoughts and ideas, present problems and solutions, and to highlight what’s great about xyz (in our case the adventure of riding motorcycles..

    I’m certain that many more posts and pages will follow this one, and it’s not my intent to hijack the discussion, but rather to call time out in a game that has gone into overtime for so long, the fans are tired and want to go home. Some fans may never come back to the game even..

    So quick game rule check:

    Do electric motorcycles belong in advrider?
    Well it’s a motorcycle, so check that box. Can a rider have an adventure on one? If you can have an adventure on one, then check that box too..

    Does an adventure on an electric quality as an adventure that one typically experiences on a non-electric motorcycle? This I feel is where we start to get closer to the source of contention. If you can get out of the suburbs away from home and explore somewhere that is new and exciting, then I think we can constitute that as an adventure in our context.
    I figured I’d ask Siri for a definition of the word for a knowledge check and Siri states:

    “As a noun, it means, an unusual and exciting, typically hazardous, experience or activity”

    Let’s go down that rabbit hole for a moment..

    Electric motorcycles are unusual in how they are propelled and refueled, are often exciting with their acceleration, could be hazardous if one leaves you stranded without a means to charge, and provides an experience like no other motorcycle does as I think everyone can agree on from those who’ve tried or owned one.

    Okay, so it’s a motorcycle and as a rider, you can have an adventure on one.

    So where’s the argument from this point forward? I don’t see any threads anywhere else in Advrider that are titled “best rebuttal to 2-stroke skeptics” etc.. because there shouldn’t be. And there’s no point. It’s presumed that the person who created this thread was hoping to provide a killing ground to quell all incoming questions and doubts about EM’s and EV’s, but as we can all see, pages in, it has not, and has only exacerbated the divide between those who are curious enough to ask and those who feel there shouldn’t be any reasons why someone shouldn’t buy or ride/drive an electric vehicle.

    If you haven’t got the point yet, I’ll make it more clear in fewer words: The title to this thread is dumb and should be closed and buried in some dark corner where no one would read the back and forth, solve-nothing nature of its existence.

    No I haven’t read the other pages but feel that if I did, it would contain great points from skeptics and proponents, but ultimately, pages of people going in circles, back and forth, going nowhere.

    You know where we all should be going? On adventurous motorcycle rides, that’s what. And powered by anything the rider wants. If it’s two gerbils running in a wheel that you feel is the most adventurous way to get you to your destination and back, well, then gerbil power it is.. but it’s not so much about the destination as it is the journey that gets us there. Remember that fellow adventure riders. :gyro
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  11. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP . Supporter

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    Well said. Please post a link here to your new thread when it comes to be.
  12. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    The OP (@ctromley) comes across to me as a friendly well intentioned and educated sort of guy that has a lot of enthusiasm for EV's in general - from my perspective he's a little overly optimistic about the realities, but that's just how I view it from his posts... He abandoned the thread due to it being divisive and I sort of feel bad about that... I really don't think that was his intention...
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  13. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    It was intentional - no reason to bring other people's names into your trolling... it took me no more than a minute to find it, you can spend the time if you feel it's important...
  14. ZoomerP

    ZoomerP . Supporter

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    Asking you to properly provide quotes is trolling?
    I thought it was just part of having an honest discussion about what's been said here.

    The more you post, the easier it is to see you have no desire to discuss the topic in good faith.
    As @voltsxamps said, there's no point in continuing on that course. Unsubbed.
  15. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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  16. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    No - most your posts prior to that request is what I see as trolling
    ...and this is clearly trolling
  17. johngault

    johngault Leaning into it Supporter

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    Yea sure....im going to waste my time doing that for you.......better that you dig a little further. You could look no further than Al Gore predictions in his first movie on the subject...the inconvenient truth is that he predicted we would all be dead by now:
    President Al Gore’s movie “An Inconvenient Truth” revealing the “grave” threat of global warming. On January 26, 2006 the Washington Post stated Al “believes humanity may have only 10 years left to save the planet from turning into a total frying pan.”
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  18. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

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    :rolleyes Knew you had nothing.:csm
  19. mr72

    mr72 Been here awhile

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    The problem really is when we go from what is totally reasonable and friendly, "hey you know EVs (EMs) can be really useful for some people and I really dig mine! It will be really cool watching this technology develop!" to the "if you don't agree with my political ideology about EVs being superior then you are immoral and complicit in destruction of the planet".

    In Texas, we have four of the ten largest cities in America, and EVs can work as a 100% transportation solution for those who live in the center of big cities and have little life outside of work that's just beyond walking distance of home. And that's a lot of people for sure. But it's not even close to the majority of the population even of this one state. For all of the rest of us, they won't work except as a supplemental vehicle and we have to have an ICEV anyway, which makes EVs largely viable only for the well-to-do who can afford what is an extremely expensive (by comparison) second vehicle. But for the life of me I can't find any way that EVs solve a transportation problem that is not already solved by either traditional gas/diesel vehicles or mass transit, except that for those who could rely on mass transit, they just prefer to have their own vehicle. In practice, at least among those to whom I have spoken, EV ownership has a lot more to do with ideology and elitism than it does with the actual utility of the vehicle.

    And whether EV advocates care to admit it or not, the proliferation of EV-supporting infrastructure does necessarily erode the non-EV infrastructure. So for those of us, the majority at least in my state, who absolutely must rely on an ICEV for daily transportation needs, reducing over the next few decades the availability of fueling stations or the number of gas pumps compared to the number of EV charging stations will have a meaningful impact on our mobility.

    If you love EVs and they work for you, awesome! I'm happy to discuss it with you and even cheer you on to use them. But if you are using your EV advocacy as a symbol of your superiority over the deplorables, then we have nothing to talk about.
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  20. johngault

    johngault Leaning into it Supporter

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    In fact, for the worlds population, by objective measures, there has never been a better time to be alive on this planet.
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