The F5 Bivouac (general rallye raid news)

Discussion in 'Racing' started by PackMule, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. waldecker

    waldecker Been here awhile

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    There is no way Australia could put together a Dakar route to rival South America.
    Fully agree- for starters the organizers would have to satisfy unrealistic demands by hordes of bureaucrats in multiple states in addition to select federal f***wits -any sound minded person would long be gone bonkers before a Dakar style event would get all necessary stamps of approval
    For example,Motorcycling Australia has been "encouraged" to apply for the ISDE in recent years, but suitable riding areas and necessary infrastructure for paddock/service areas- let alone acces for spectators- just don't match up without committing financial suicide....
    Besides, ASO is a french organisation- do you honestly believe they get anything done in OZ?
    Dream on...:photog(and don't mention the ISDE....:D)
    PilbaraGoat likes this.
  2. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    @rider911

    Close proximity...?

    You may have noticed that the DAKAR route (as you underlined) is comprised of 10,000 km's of route. Made up of road transport stages (liason) and competitive sections (selective stages). Some of these transport stages in South America are anywhere up to 600 or 700 km's long. By comparison the trans continental Wynn's and Australian Safari's routes (typically Sydney - Alice Springs - Darwin, or Adelaide - Alice Springs - Cairns rarely had transport stages of more than 300 - 400 km's). Those were rallies that encompassed routes between 4,500 km and 6,500 km in length (total) and ran typically anywhere from 7 to 9 days in duration.

    Need longer?
    In 1988 it was 8,800 km's in 15 days from Alice - West Aust - Darwin - Mt Isa to Sydney.
    1989 was 7,000 km's in 10 days (but only bush camp/ orga marathon bivouacs - no Towns).
    1991 was 7,500 kms in 11 days
    1997 was 8,700 km's in 15 days 4,500 km of which (more than 50% of total) was competitive stages.

    Total mileage of all the SELECTIVE stages included above, is approximately 50,000 km's of detailed - rarely used more than once - cross country outback rally stages - and NONE of the above accesses any of the routes used in the Western Australian editions of the Australasian Safari from 2007 to 2014.

    If you take the trans continental routes of the 1979 REPCO Round Australia, 1995 Mobil Round Australia and 1998 Playstation Round Australia Trials (each of these rallies circumnavigated the continent - encompassed every state and capital of the six mainland states) and overlay them on top of the Wynn's, Australian and Australasian Safari routes of 1985 to 2014... apply the "Safari selectives" (all set out on private leasehold or freehold land) as competition stages and the road trial sectors of the Round Australia rallie's as the transports... you can EASILY get a 10,000 km route that fills the criteria. Not a sacred site or national park involved.

    okay... so we don't have the Andes mountains and altitudes of 3000m and upwards (neither did the African editions). We don't have the big open seas of sand dunes of Chilé and Peru (neither did the 2016 DAKAR... :wink:).

    The question asked was "could one organise a DAKAR (like) rally in Australia. The answer is "yes".

    But your "naaaaah... can't be done..." post is typical of the casual observer, jaded by the everyday media coverage of the political football that has become known as "land rights". I can tell you authoritively without equivocation, that between 1987 to 2004, the Australian Safari regulary was given access to CLC properties based soley on the relation of the organiser with the local inhabitants and land holders. I appreciate that the situation has not remained static in the 12 years that have passes, but the success of the Western Australian Safari's in putting together viable cross country rally routes during this time period indicates to me that it IS NOT impossible - as you imply.

    Might it be complex...? "Yes" Is there a good deal of bureacracy to be addressed...? Answer: also "yes". By the same token the ASO don't just draw aline across South America and go wherever they please either - as this year evidenced. But as to the question "can it be done?".

    Yes - provided the finances, marketing and time/organisation were put in place to do do so, geographically and politically it is achievable.

    Do I think that it is likely that the French organisation ASO is likely to "re-invent its DAKAR" again, on the Australian sub-continent, in the southern hemisphere's winter (late summer in Europe) and embark on what would be a decidedliy more "anglo-saxon" DAKAR...?

    No... I think that is the more likely reason that the idea was only ever lightly entertained... not because a suitable route could'nt be arranged, as you stated @rider911
    640 Armageddon likes this.
  3. Clancy

    Clancy Long timer

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    The old saying applies "Build it and they will come."

    Just an opinion but I reckon you'd get thousands there, from o/s too. When you consider the number of folks that have never been here and just need a reason like this to come.
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  4. Deadly99

    Deadly99 Fast and Far

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    It was interesting when Etienne said something to the effect of not moving yet. Not too many places with suitable terrain, the list gets even smaller once land use issues gets factored in.

    Seems inevitable the race has/has to change. Wide open compass headings are becoming harder to find. Personally I'd prefer (as a fan mind you, not a participant) if the terrain becomes more technical as opposed to wrc style. Highspeed crashes versus technical tip overs....safer? This year the race (week one and parts of week two) favored braveryand flat out speed on gravel roads versus experience with navigation. At least with technical offroad navigation can be more influential. From a spectators pov it would be more "entertaining" to watch.

    Hill ascents/decents, single track, ridge riding, washes....any terrain a mini van cannot drive :)

    Chile and more importantly Peru seem critical to the race. Without them its either wrc or technical terrain?

    Paraguay, that time of year is wet and muddy...not sure why they are considering it.

    Bolivia, no doubt has lots to offer. No fields of dunes sadly but some cool looking stuff. After a few years it will become boring though (only so many roads)

    Just sort of thinking (typing) out loud here ;)
  5. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    The Sth American dakar exists because Africa stopped being an option. Australia/Russia etc may become an option for the same reason.

    Maybe the issue for Oz is also that the aso needs a country or countries that they can enforce their rules on. Eg, baja 1000, no way could it be held in the USA (liability). In Australia they would have to conform to our rules. Hence it becomes really complicated for them to organise. The Aso is a little like napster, we don't share music, we provide a platform to share it. Aso, we organise the rally, once your off our radar, your on your own, eg, you could get dropped in town somewhere by the aso recovery crew but once there its your job to get back to the port to ship your rig home. Plenty of stories of people making there own way home, without org support. Don't think governments in Oz or the USA would wear that one. A thought anyhow.
  6. BC61

    BC61 Long timer

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    South American stories or Africa? ASO was fantastic with me in SA. After plucking me out of the dunes in the middle of the night and taking me to the bivouac they flew me with their crew to the next day's bivouac. Their travel department helped me make arrangements to fly where ever I wanted. They drove me to the airport. My motorcycle was picked up in the dunes by helicopter, then transported by truck to the port in Lima. Couldn't of asked for more support from the ASO.
    nry, Rato Molhado, ferals5 and 4 others like this.
  7. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    On the subject of alternate locations to run Dakar, I have a different perspective from some here. I think it would be a big challenge, but not impossible to run Dakar in North America.

    As I'm finding while organizing Sonora Rally, the expected and unexpected challenges can be overcome. Darren and I are having success opening up new areas for off-road racing in Mexico, including huge areas where we can run off-piste. Our plan from the beginning was to grow Sonora Rally into a 5 day or longer event, expanding south from the USA boarder one rally stage at a time, one year at a time. This plan is working, and that's with just two guys from California and almost zero budget. With a larger organization, and a budget to support it, I don't see why a rally could not be created that spanned the length of Mexico (similar in size to Argentina). Look at the Rally Playero "Coast-to-Coast" event, which also crossed "new" terrain for off-road racing in central Mexico. Mexico has the huge and varied desert terrain that is well suited for Dakar.

    As for the USA, it's already proven, year after year, that off-road racing is possible, despite the challenges of liability, BLM, and other things. Look at the annual Vegas-to-Reno race, which is roughly equivalent to two good stages of Dakar. Add to that some of the other areas BITD races in the States. Then add private land where off-piste is possible, and a few other ideas I have for huge regions where BLM has no jurisdiction, and you have the possibility of several stages in the USA.

    Then, if you're willing to have a few more WRC stages (which I'm not a fan of), you can add another 2000km crossing Central America.

    It's all a matter of being smart and putting in a lot of hard work to make a dream become reality. That Dakar 2017 map I created a while back was done somewhat as a joke. But all good jokes have a sliver of truth running through them. A different version of that map was already in my head before I decided to twist it into a joke.

    BTW, we got a couple of emails from ASO the last few weeks! :thumb
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  8. Deadly99

    Deadly99 Fast and Far

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    Do you think they'd be able to put routes together for say 5 years? One or two seems feasible (and would be awesome) but is there enough land to do back to back years for a while? Its a pretty serious $ investment for them to move (making contacts, politics, volunteers, logistics, etc).

    Curious what you think as no one seems to know rally raid in North America like you do :thumb
    DesertSurfer likes this.
  9. dieselcruiserhead

    dieselcruiserhead Long timer

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    I agree w hogwild about at least some portion of it in the USA. Wyoming, some portions of western Colorado, Utah, Nevada, Ca, Idaho, and Arizona would all be doable. Lots of bureaucracy and red tape (BLM is a f'g nightmare to deal with with permits - no centralized office) otherwise it would be killer, and it is possibly possible. Then down into Mexico too perhaps.

    Could be epic, if you ask me...
  10. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    Epic for sure. I still think the aso wants to run it their way, and I'd think in the USA many people would want their piece of the pie. Having said that the aso want a payment and guaranteed security for staff/competitors etc and they'd get that in the US. If they thought it would work I reckon they'd be there already though.
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  11. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    In some areas, yes, other areas no. For example Mexico I think would be similar to Argentina. They could use certain very unique ares over and over, like they do in Fiambalá. The huge Altar dunes where we run part of Sonora Rally is ideal, and gives that true Dakar monster dunes experience. There are other desert areas of Mexico that are huge, with roads all over the place where they could run different routes each year. In the States there are limitations in most areas, but there are a few areas where there's enough land to use over and over for a few years before they had to repeat. It's not Africa, that's for sure. But it's not that different from South America.
    DesertSurfer, Deadly99 and CBVRacing like this.
  12. too old

    too old Keen supporter Supporter

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    Maybe the first step is to host a round of the FIM world cross country championship - they had just 1 round in SA last year, which was planned I suppose when Chile was in the picture and was still used as Dakar training, (ok only by a few) but much further to go for a single round than say one in the USA?
  13. Desert boots

    Desert boots Been here awhile

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    The first Dakar in Sth America in 2009, I (IIRC?) they had one stage which travelled south of Buenes Aires.
    [/QUOTE]


    That's correct - the first 2 days of 2009 were south of BA.

    It is rough country down there - for instance - there were only 2 days on the rally which we spent all day with the support vehicle in 4WD, and one of them was south of the Nuequen bivouac. Looking a map of Argentina - the roads get more and more sparse the further south you go from Nuequen - so I'd say it gets rougher and rougher. i.e. - YES - THE DAKR COULD & SHOULD GO THERE !!
  14. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    [​IMG]

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  15. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    So where will Dakar 2017 go? :scratch

    - Seth Efrika?

    - Stralia?

    - Farther down in Argentina, ripping tracks through Patagonia?


    - Mexico City to Lima via the Darien Gap?

    - North American HogWild route?

    - Same old WRC tracks as this year?
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  16. chasbo

    chasbo Long timer Supporter

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    I think it will be more or less like this year. I would love for it to go to South Africa or Australia, but doubt that would happen. I can dream though.
  17. CBVRacing

    CBVRacing CBVRacing

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    Personally I think they will stay in SA as long as it is commercially viable and that they don't lose too many non-SA racers that make up the majority of the field.

    I was at ASO in 2006 and we discussed options for Australia. At the time, although they loved the idea, logistically it was not feasible - just too far from Europe for the ships.

    Russia and China are taken, so is North/WestAfrica.

    So really the 3 options left are SA, USA/Mexico, and Southern Africa.

    Once riders start fleeing the SA course more and more for the lack of 'Dakar Spirit', USA and Southern Africa will be the options. No doubt the USA/Mexico will be the most commercially viable option for ASO, however if they say that the Dakar will be in Southern Africa in 2017 or 2018, I garantee that ALL the categories will be booked within 24 hours!
  18. fz6kd7

    fz6kd7 Long timer

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    The locals really turn out in South America and thats good for local business.
    But it also means more chance for accidents and death of spectators and that is bad from many angles.
    Maybe better support from local police for crowd control and race organization support as well??????
    Less wrc/endouro type stages and more alot more off piste would help some.
  19. too old

    too old Keen supporter Supporter

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    Here we go for 2016/7 then-

  20. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    JBB still on the team?

    :hide
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