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The F5 Bivouac (general rallye raid news)

Discussion in 'Racing' started by PackMule, Dec 23, 2009.

  1. cheekorollo

    cheekorollo Been here awhile

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    This is quite interesting. There's a lot of... erm... 'competitive energy' in the gulf states, with Qatar pretty heavily disliked by Saudi Arabia and its close allies like Bahrain. There's been quite the power struggle going on there for the last 15 years or so.

    What the hell does all this politics have to do with rally? Well, here's my theory:

    Nasser. Nasser Al-Attiyah is Qatari. And he's bloody successful. He keeps turning up in western races with a car smothered in Qatari tourism ads. And in January, he literally drove through the middle of Saudi Arabia with an ad for the Qatar 2022 world cup on the side of his bakkie.

    I doubt very much that the ruling classes in Saudi liked that too much. So what are they going to do about it? No matter how 'malleable' ASO's ethics may be, booting Nasser's entry is clearly a bridge too far, so pressuring ASO is out. So what can Saudi do? Deploying a heavy handed approach didn't work too well on the international stage recently when they went to town on that journalist, so any 'accidents' for Nasser are out. So they need to deploy some other resources they have. And one thing that the ruling classes have in the middle east is CASH.

    Queue a LOT of middle eastern states or state owned companies suddenly taking an interest in rally raid, and signing up deals with the biggest names in motorsport. It's no co-incidence that at a Peugeot found it's way into the hands of Sheikh Khalid Al Qassimi (UAE, a Saudi ally). And we see Yazeed Al Rajhi (Saudi Arabian) in a Toyota, and Yasir Seaidan (also Saudi) in a Mini. That's literally all the top hardware in the car class accounted for! And all three of those drivers have state backing.

    This little proxy war, presuming it remains gentlemanly, will be great for rally raid as there'll be plenty of cash sloshing about. Hopefully this also means opportunities for highly sophisticated outfits such as Prodrive to provide extra vehicles for other top drivers.

    It remains to be seen if this cash splashes over into the bike class.
  2. waldecker

    waldecker Been here awhile

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    From official FIM website : http://www.fim-live.com/en/article/first-fim-board-of-directors-meeting-in-2020/

    Safety in Rallies: The FIM is extremely concerned with the level of security in Cross Country Rallies events and therefore has called for a meeting to be held on 2 March in Lisbon between expert engineers, official team directors as well as the Dakar organiser, ASO. Important measures to increase the safety of riders are expected in order to minimise the risk of fatal accidents in light of recent events.

    Would be interesting to be a fly on the wall during that meeting...
    Anyone here with access to the inside?
    keepshoveling and garfey like this.
  3. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

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    A safety commission meeting that no one really wants is my vision of hell. Even if I was a fly. :grim
  4. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    :y0!At a guess; possible suggestions:

    1. Lower the average speed (scratch stage aggregate - not include DZ's etc.) specification for special stages... in other words - lower the amount if full throttle running on the special stages.
    i.e. method: less open terrain high speed sections on "pistes"... and more technical terrain/navigation composition to the stages.

    2. Possibilty to physically limit (GPS/Irritrack monitored) the moto's top speed. (likely somewhere @ 150 to 160 km/h mark?). i.e. method: Suggestion; a two tier alert buzzer to warn the rider at first 10 km/h below, then 5 km/h below the "limit"? First instance of exceeding the speed limit will receive an equivalent time penalty (to the speed/duration exceeded). The second instance - DOUBLE the equivalent speed/duration exceeded. Third infraction in same stage = 30 minute time penalty. For repeated infringements = increased time penalties up to exclusion?

    3. The possibility for the organisation to eliminate* the use of "bib mousse" rear (and perhaps front?) tire for elite racers? (*except for marathons... maybe? :dunno). ie. method: to reduce the "attack" tempo of the fastest MOTO riders (in order to conserve their rubber), and thereby reduce the approach velocity that has become common on the ! and !! cautions that exist in the roadbook?



    :ear :lurk
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  5. schattat

    schattat Long timer

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    This will actually be implemented at the World Championship starting with the round in Abu Dhabi next month. The championship will be divided into 2 categories; factory and non-factory rider...
    RallyGP (=factory riders) are allowed to ride up to 150km/h, other mortals "only" 130km/h.

    upload_2020-2-17_10-10-32.png

    In addition to the Women and juniors class they are also introducing a malle-moto class ("Adventure Class") which I will be doing the Desert Challenge in!
  6. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

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    Dammit. :baldy
  7. ssason

    ssason Been here awhile

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    In one of the other threads somebody mentioned a problem with the speed limit and i agree with that.... it might force another risk... "stay as long fast as you can..." Who brakes lattest for the tripple caution?! :dunno
    ferals5 and troy safari carpente like this.
  8. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    Yes... that is one of the potential outcomes of "capping" the speed limit physically by GPS.

    It was Kinigadner who made the point (in an interview last year) that excluding the use of mousse insert tubes (or similar) for the elite riders, might also subdue the pace of the top moto competitor's a little.

    As the situation is at the moment; the top guys attack very hard on open pistes, and almost ignore the single ! and double !! cautions in the roadbook - because they believe the tires can cope.

    The idea being I suppose, that going back to conventional inner tube will make the riders have to manage their rubber a little more considerately (less attack). That is (I suppose :dunno) until someone invents a bulletproof rubber/kevlar composite pneumatic inner tube (that only the factory teams afford) and then we're back to square one... possibly? :dunno:augie
  9. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    Re: "Speed limits" in Rally Raid.

    In the end, I still think the crux of the safety matter is the composition/terrain make up of the stages.

    If the terrain dictates that you simply cannot travel at 150 km/h or faster... then it's not going to be possible to crash at that speed. The accidents will be less likely to involve fatality.

    The difficulty being, that somewhere in a wide expansive desert landscape, there is almost always going to be some place where a vehicle can travel at maximum speed (160 km/h 180... even 200 km/h). Limiting the number of occasions and the duration in time at which the competitors are running at these speeds is the key factor.

    Whether it is achieved by the course composition, or physically monitored/penalized electronically by way of the GPS/Irritrack... or a combination of both? That seem's to be the issue.
    cheekorollo, ferals5 and homerj like this.
  10. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

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    It already kinda-sorta' exists.
    https://ridetraxy.com/about.html
    It's made for slower extreme-enduro, but how long would it take for KTM/HRC to outsource something similar.
    Then what about tire balls system? Some riders actually prefer it to mousses.

    Adopting any of these external, technical limitations while the essence of Rally Raid is the roadbook and navigation is beyond understanding.
    troy safari carpente likes this.
  11. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    ^^^ Correct on all counts - regarding mousse/tireballs/tubeliss/traxy rimlock/tire goo's and sealants etc.

    As we've seen in past (450cc capacity limit in Rally raid MOTO... Group B elimination in WRC... T3 prototype elimination in DAKAR/Cross Country Rally, no Turbo's, ground effects etc. etc. etc. ad-infinitum in F1...)... limitations on the technical regulations, usually only take the teams one or two seasons to find a way to get back to the same level, or in fact go faster than ever. That's the nature of the game... technological advancement.

    Roadbook, navigation and the type of terrain are the factors which allowed the competitors to travel at the speeds they did... and possibly are the contributing factor to the accidents that occurred on DAKAR this year. Drop the average speed attainable on the piste... is the key factor.

    Technological restrictions will be overcome by the factory teams almost as fast as you can apply them... while "GPS monitoring" any speed limit, will only make the game of high speed roulette more complicated/dangerous - in my opinion - as the riders will be required to pay attention to ANOTHER instrumentation... more intent on watching the speed limiter than reading the terrain (perhaps?). In my mind, that would INCREASE the risks... not reduce them? :dunno:dunno
    JMo (& piglet) likes this.
  12. Balkan Boy

    Balkan Boy Long timer

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  13. troy safari carpente

    troy safari carpente Team f5oolery

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    :rofl:clap:lol3

    ... well, 'dat's the Irish for ya'... they can't even spell "fookin' " correctly... :imaposer
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  14. ssason

    ssason Been here awhile

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    more or less the same problem... i guess they will race the hell out of the tires and those will win who take the risk of blowing them (and doesn´t not so...)
    troy safari carpente likes this.
  15. schattat

    schattat Long timer

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    Something to consider when using tubes is the bad luck factor that you will have. Punctures can even happen at slow speeds. Obviously you have the risk factor of a mousse disintegrating but this is much less than that of a puncture? And I don't see anybody wanting to carry a long a spare and tools.

    I remember when I first started out racing. I was advised to use a new Continental UHD tube which had 6mm!!! thick wall (Michelins have 4mm). It failed when the glued on valve just popped off the tube. Never used a tube since...
    Gany and troy safari carpente like this.
  16. ssason

    ssason Been here awhile

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    I used the conti tubes on my northcape trip (no racing)... but during mounting a was realy worried if i need to replace them on the road, while raining and cold... not that easy to mount... as you wrote...a bit of gamble, use them and hope you don´t need to change because you need them, or use easy to change tubes if you need to change :jjen

    Back to racing, some time ago i read an interview with a former Lancia WRC engineer back out of the group b times.... He explainend the difference in buildung there rally cars compared to the Audis... they where aware that they can´t build there cars that way that nothing will fail. So they focused on fast repair/change of nearly everything, Audi build there cars that nothing can brake....:dunno guess what worked better at the end.... :photog

    back to the topic, i see another risk (but maybe only from comfy seat...)... Might it be a problem that more bikes will be caught by cars on track when the bikes are forced to slow down? Might cause another risk due to overtaking?!
  17. JDH5

    JDH5 Adventurer

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    I am absolutely not an elite rider but I am a competitive person and if I lost 15 minutes because I stopped to fix a flat tire, I'm going to be pushing harder to make up some time.
  18. leexc

    leexc Been here awhile

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    Am I the only person who thinks slaming your head, neck, chest in to the nav gear/ screen is a big part of the problem, granted at that point things have already gone badly wrong but if the rider had a clear or even much smoother/softer flight path if he goes over the bars he/she stands a better chance, some of the nav gear set ups I see make me cringe but even the standard 450RFR nav gear is not exactly rib friendly, we have some pretty important stuff going on just behind those ribs.
  19. godwinmt

    godwinmt They call me Crash

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    I don't know...having wrecked in pretty spectacular ways on a rally bike, I've never had to worry about my head/chest smacking the tower...the only time I've come close is during a big G-out or unexpected wash, I think I've smacked my peak on it a time or two. Most of the time you're well clear of it.

    The main injuries you see with the pro riders involving anything on the bike is the femur fractures that Sam/Toby/Matthias have all had...and that's from typically the bike hitting something non-movable (wash/bank) suddenly at a high rate of speed, and hitting the bars with your thigh.
    keepshoveling likes this.
  20. wrk2surf

    wrk2surf on the gas or brakes

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