The G650 GS Thread

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by LarryGee, Jan 29, 2012.

  1. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    8,107
    Location:
    Oaklandish
    The standard G650GSs don't typically lean too much. The Sertaos and Dakars lean way too much when stock.

    Probably worth checking to see if the pivot bolt and bushing are badly work or if the stand or pivot are bent. WayneC's website has info on the sidestand issues related to the Dakars, but the only difference is the length of the sidestands. https://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/SideStand.html
    LunarFirefly likes this.
  2. ZanderMan

    ZanderMan Needs monitoring

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Oddometer:
    808
    Location:
    Orange Co, NC
    If you remove the front fender, is it important to put this bracket back on?

    IMG_8713.jpg

    It’s obviously very rigid and acts as a bit of an airfoil to push air up into the radiator but is it necessary for the front forks?

    2007 F650GS
  3. underontop

    underontop Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    219
    Location:
    Nelson, NZ
    The forks are not enormous great huge structures, what would the offset braking force do without that brace ? There's a thriving aftermarket for folk who's bikes don't have fork braces....
  4. ZanderMan

    ZanderMan Needs monitoring

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2021
    Oddometer:
    808
    Location:
    Orange Co, NC
    Dunno, I don’t quite see the real purpose. The forks are kept aligned by the front axle. All braking causes linear compression of the fork though maybe rotation of the rotor while braking causes a twisting action.

    Ulterior motive - Evaluating the thought of putting a plate there that I can use to mount a single 4” aux light on. The current brace doesn’t lend itself to modification so thought I’d fab a flat plate to take its place. I guess the plate can serve the same purpose as long as it’s rigid enough.

    IMG_8714.jpg
  5. BlueRidgeTiger

    BlueRidgeTiger Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2021
    Oddometer:
    62
    Location:
    Upstate, South Carolina
    Hey guys,

    Im back again with more braking issues on the 650 GS.

    Since we last bled the brakes they have been working fine. Been on several rides now with no issues...until last Sunday.

    First, Fiance and I have been going out several times a week since my last post about her back brake going out. We flushed the brakes with higher quality fluid and all was good. Since Sept. 12th when her brakes had issues, we've put about ~150 miles on her bike riding backroads and twisties and had no issues. Until this weekend.

    Then, this past weekend, Fiance and I did a loooong ride up to Linville Gorge on Saturday 9/25. We went up through Rosman, NC, got on the Blue Ridge Parkway, and then rode to Linville Gorge and Old NC 105 (dirt road), then set up camped Saturday night. We did over 100 miles through twisty mountain roads and gravel and had zero issues. Went down some gravel roads that had some interesting-but-easy obstacles and were just fine.

    We camped on Old NC-105 (dirt road). Woke up Sunday, loaded up and got underway. We turned the ABS OFF on her bike when we started out Sunday. Rode 2 miles of extremely easy gravel road going at a safe, easy pace when all of a sudden going down a hill, Fiance tells me she has lost her back brakes. She down shifted and got to the bottom and hit the front brake...dropped her bike. Not too hard, but the right handlebar landed on a rock, shoved her Barkuster up and knocked the FRONT brake line loose (the impact loosened the banjo bolt screw). Zero damage to the actual braking system, but the fall loosened the banjo bolt and got air into the front brake.

    So there we were, sitting on Old NC-105 with her 650GS that now has no back brakes for some mysterious reason, and now no front brakes.

    We rode my F800 2up home, came back with a trailer and towed her bike back to the house.

    Today, I went and bled her brakes again now. tightened up all the fittings and bled the whole system using the hose with a 1-way bleeder valve. Then, around noon today, I reverse-bled the front and back brakes with 500ml of brake fluid, each. Each reservoir is now 100% topped off with no air gaps at all and both the front and back brakes feel really firm.

    I have a vacuum pump brake bleeder now, and Im planning to bleed the brakes again tonight using the vacuum now.

    This time I also used Pentosin "Super DOT4" as many have recommended, supposedly higher quality than the stuff we used before.

    I also have a new rear master cylinder assembly (master cylinder with switch, soft line, and fluid reservoir) on the way plus two Brembo master cylinder rebuild kits.

    I'm not sure what the issue is now, these damn brakes are going to be the death of me (knock on wood).

    On Saturday evening when we were riding the dirt road to our campsite, Fiance was riding with her ABS ON and triggered her ABS in her back brake a couple of times going downhill on some spots Saturday afternoon, but had ZERO issues with her brakes at all Saturday after 100+ miles of long riding through mountain twisties and some steep dirt roads.

    Then we get up Sunday, turn her ABS off, go 2 miles, and her back brake goes completely dead (pedal all the way down with no resistance) on the first downhill section we encounter. What gives???

    Im about to try to use the vacuum bleeder on her bike. I've heard that when bleeding brakes on the F/G650 single, one should bleed them, go for a ride and slam the brakes to trigger the ABS, then bleed them again. Something about cycling the air out of the ABS pump....is this accurate? And is there a safer way to trigger the ABS without going out on the road or using a $800 GS911 device?
  6. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    8,107
    Location:
    Oaklandish
    Yes, put the fork brace back in its place. And torque the four bolts to 19 Nm. The Dakars and Sertaos don't come with a lower fender but they do come with the brace.

    A 17mm axle isn't the most rigid thing in the world and can use all the help it can get. The brace also keeps things aligned when you have to remove the front wheel so it is easier to put it back together.
    Gravel Seeker and ZanderMan like this.
  7. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    8,107
    Location:
    Oaklandish

    First, after you've bled the brakes and they are firm and hold, there would be no reason to then vacuum bled them again. I've stopped vacuum bleeding altogether and have gone back to the tried and true: pump 3 times, hold, open bleeder, repeat. I always have had problems with the vacuum pump pulling air in around the threads of the bleeder screws and confusing what I'm seeing.

    Second, there is a trick to bleeding the front brake. After you think you've done a thorough bleed, there is a bleed screw INSIDE the reservoir, just near the banjo bolt. Loosen the bolt, pump the lever a few times and watch the bubbles come up in the reservoir. Tighten the bleed screw. The earlier F model master cylinders don't have that bleed screw, but it was the only way I've found to get rid of bubbles trapped in the banjo connection.

    Next, did the back brake every recover? Otherwise, the back brake has a problem and it isn't related to the ABS (since you had the ABS disabled). I'm guessing the master cylinder needs a rebuild. The only way to get air out of the ABS modulator (that I'm aware of) is using a GS-911 of the BMW diagnostic tool. The ABS was different on the F650s and did require use of a GS-911 to fully bleed the system. Not the same on your G650GS. @WayneC has some great info the ABS versions, etc. https://www.f650gs.crossroadz.com.au/BrakesAndABS.html

    Full retail on the GS-911 is $399, not $800. That allows using it on 10 different GS bikes.
    Gravel Seeker likes this.
  8. slartidbartfast

    slartidbartfast Life is for good friends and great adventures Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2003
    Oddometer:
    14,041
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana or Southern England or ...
    Yes, the brace needs to be there to keep the front end "tight" under hard cornering and braking. A suitably beefy plate bolted in its place would fulfil the same function, I'm sure.
    ZanderMan likes this.
  9. underontop

    underontop Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    219
    Location:
    Nelson, NZ
    "there is a bleed screw INSIDE the reservoir" Aint necessarily so....I've never seen a bike down here with that screw.
  10. BlueRidgeTiger

    BlueRidgeTiger Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2021
    Oddometer:
    62
    Location:
    Upstate, South Carolina
    I just tried to vacuum them...guess who had the same problem you did! Cant tell what I am seeing coming out of the brake bleeder, though it filled the cannister.

    Yes, the back brake recovered. When we got back to her bike with my truck and trailer, I hopped on her 650 and drove it onto the trailer just fine, both front and back brakes worked perfectly. When her brakes went out on the dirt Sunday, we had ridden maybe 2 miles and her brakes felt cool, I was able to put my bare hand on the caliper no problem, so it wasnt an overheating issue.

    I'll read that link a bit more about bleeding the ABS on the G650.

    and TY for the heads up on the front reservoir screw!

    I'm starting to wonder if her master cylinder needs to be rebuilt? I did buy the parts already so there's that...
  11. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    8,107
    Location:
    Oaklandish
    Supposedly all the G650GS models (USA, EUR, etc) share the same master cylinder.
    Inside looks like this
    upload_2021-9-27_16-44-22.png
    Gravel Seeker likes this.
  12. kchick

    kchick n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2019
    Oddometer:
    7
    Location:
    New Orleans,LA
    Hello friends, long time listener, first time caller.
    A few months back my 2014 g650gs started to lose all electrical power, and therefore engine shut down while operating. This seemed to happen at first only when clutch was engaged, and typically when gearing down from 3 to 2, or 2 to 1. I would switch ignition off, then back on and bike would start up normally but a few times when switching ignition key to off position the instrument cluster would start to power up and go thru startup for several seconds then turn off on it's own, mind you power was getting to the instrument cluster with the key in the off position.

    I brought the bike to my bmw dealer in New Orleans. There they put in a new bmw battery, replaced spark plugs, air filter and did a whole boat load of diagnostics, including, of course, updating the system firmware. They had a very tough time recreating the problem consistently but did witness and document it at least once. When they returned the bike to me, I experienced the same full shut down no less than 4 times within ten minutes of exiting their shop. I promptly returned the bike to them and for the next several weeks they basically scratched their heads at it and eventually they couldn't locate the problem and basically guessed that perhaps replacing the wiring harness for $3500 could maybe do it. Obviously, I'm not going for that, especially considering they had specifically run tests on the wiring harness based on another dealerships recommendation and said that there was no issue.

    I contacted BMW motorrad north america, BMW motorrad homebase in Germany and eventually the executive BMW motorrad north america team. After their review, they stated that the bike was operating as designed, though they did offer a one time goodwill $500 towards the $1200 that was owed on the service to my bmw of new orleans dealer. I've been pretty disappointed with BMW's handling of this, all they see is a 6 year old bike out of warrantee, whereas I've done my part to have scheduled maintenance performed at 6k and 12k by bmw dealers and the bike only has 15k miles on it, it's ready to ride for a long time to come, mechanically.

    The research I've done has had limited results of riders experiencing the same issue. The best I've come up with is potentially a faulty ignition switch or ignition switch adapter cable. It was suggested that perhaps a grounding issue could be occurring but the instrument cluster now turning on when the ignition is in the off position seems to negate that one, for me at least. My next move was going to be to get the bike to my trusted BMW of Austin, TX dealer, who has always done right by me to possibly replace the ignition and adapter cable but it feels a bit like I'm grasping at straws.

    I'm not experienced at working on fuel injected bikes as most of my knowledge came from medium level work on a yamaha 82, maxim 650 so I don't feel particularly equipped to do much work on the bike myself.

    Sorry for writing a book but the situation has been complex. Please, any input would be very helpful to me at this point. This bike is my primary transportation and a great source of joy. Cheers!
  13. kchick

    kchick n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2019
    Oddometer:
    7
    Location:
    New Orleans,LA
    Thanks to RideFreak and Motopsychoman for responding while I had posted this in the incorrect thread. To keep things clear, ridefreak suggested going over the wiring harness to see if I could recreate the problem by jostling the wiring, I gave this a go to all parts of the wiring harness I could access but no results.

    MotoPsychoMan posted the following:

    Welcome long time lurker n00b!

    When the power returns after cutting out, does the dash display any message characters? Trying to figure if the entire system is losing power (ECU & dash as well) or just the ignition shutting off.

    If no unusual messages are being displayed, things that come to mind include
    • Bad ignition switch
    • Loose ignition switch cable
    • Chafed wiring harness
    • Intermittent fuse or fuse holder. F6 (7.5A) is the main engine power, F1 (15A) is the ECU power
    • Bad or loose ECU connection
    • Bad ground at ECU
    • Bad ECU
    If you are getting a message with letters and numbers, then the entire system is losing power. Look at the
    • Battery connections
    • Battery cables
    • Terminals at the starter relay
    • Grounding lug (under the small plastic cover above the alternator on the right side of the engine)
    You should post this over on the G650GS thread and the Sertao thread to get more attention on it.

    Side stand switch and kill switch problems shouldn't result in the dash going through startup each time.

    Any additional info or other symptoms might be helpful.
  14. kchick

    kchick n00b

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2019
    Oddometer:
    7
    Location:
    New Orleans,LA

    When the power cuts out the key is still in the on position, headlights and all dash lose power, I turn the ignition to the off position and the dash display starts to turn on and go through its startup routine for approximately 2-3 seconds then shuts off. When I turn the key back to the on position and startup routine begins the dash does not display any messages or anything other than the standard display.

    It seems that this problem will happen once per ride and generally only earlier in the ride when the bike is a bit colder.

    Unsure if its pertinent: I had noticed in the preceding 1000 miles of riding or so that the bike would tend to do tiny "pops" as if little backfires, but only when the engine is revving down or while engine braking. However today, a new thing happened, when starting to let the clutch out to start in 1 and throttling up it was as if the throttle wasn't responding and the engine struggled and emitted a much louder "backfire sounding" pop before returning to regular operation.

    I suspect the ignition switch though I've tried jostling the key around while powered on and jostling the ignition switch cable and cannot recreate the problem. The ECU has been flashed once in the last two years at my preferred bmw shop in austin and once here my non-preferred New Orleans BMW. Is it possible the ECU hardware itself is at fault here? I'm most confused by how the dash can start to come on when the ignition switch is in the off position.

    Any help is greatly appreciated, my friends, I want my baby back.
  15. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    8,107
    Location:
    Oaklandish
    Does any odd message appear on the dash when power comes back? Like ABS xx-xx, etc, or does it just come back normally through the cycling of the lights?

    EDIT: Sorry, I jumped the gun. You were still posting... I'll go read some more.
  16. BlueRidgeTiger

    BlueRidgeTiger Adventurer

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2021
    Oddometer:
    62
    Location:
    Upstate, South Carolina
    Well, followed psychoman's advice and bled the brakes using his suggestion and they seem to work fine. Used the bleeder screw in the reservoir and that seemend to help the front.

    Took the bike for a ride and the brakes feel strong. No issues. I got up to speed and did some "emergency stops" with the ABS. It triggered and engaged like the ABS is supposed to. Then switched the ABS off and did several hard stops, locked up the back wheel several times like ot was supppsed too. Dragged the back brake zipping up and down some hills in the neighborhood and it felt good and had no problems. Alternated ABS on and off a few times and never lost any brakes.

    Fixed I guess...? We will see...
    Gravel Seeker and ZanderMan like this.
  17. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    8,107
    Location:
    Oaklandish
    If power from the battery to the DASH is interrupted, when restored some funny messages will be displayed THE FIRST TIME whether the key is on or off. When you turn the key off then back on, it will return to normal.
    If power from the keyswitch is intermittent, when you turn the key on the dash should always display like a normal startup sequence because the direct battery connection hasn't been interrupted.
    The backfires could well be caused by either the battery temporarily disconnecting power or the ignition switch temporarily interrupting engine power.

    Does that make sense?

    Of course, it could be the ECU. With a 2014 bike you likely have the BMS-E ECU. There have been some problems with them related to insufficient grounding. @WayneC recommends running an additional ground wire from any one of the screws on the ECU case directly to the chassis or to the negative terminal on the battery. I recommended to someone that they run the additional ground to the chassis common ground point, under the little plastic cover on the right side of the engine (just above the alternator cover).

    Have you removed the plastics and carefully inspected the wiring harness? On the older bike, there have a several cases of fraying where the harness runs up toward the steering head.

    You also live in humidity heaven. If I were you, every time I disconnected any electrical connector, I would spray some DeoxIT D5 in there. Spray it on all contact and soak up any left over with a tissue or cotton ball.
  18. Motopsychoman

    Motopsychoman Not a total poseur Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2013
    Oddometer:
    8,107
    Location:
    Oaklandish
    Somewhere either here or on the F650 Dakar thread, I think it was @Gravel Seeker who posted a really nice write up and pictures of rebuilding the ignition switch internals.
  19. underontop

    underontop Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    219
    Location:
    Nelson, NZ
    I had this exact issue on my G650X....it turned out to be a faulty starter relay...it was sticking. Really cheap easy fix, after a lot of mucking around.
    Gravel Seeker likes this.
  20. underontop

    underontop Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Oddometer:
    219
    Location:
    Nelson, NZ
    I've seen this picture. I can tell you that no Kiwi gs I've seen has that , neither has my Sth African import.