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Discussion in 'Battle Scooters' started by RedArrow, Nov 14, 2013.
OK then 125cc's. On a two-stroke scooter the principle is the same. 40:1 or maybe 36:1.
I've run bikes up to 175cc with 40:1. It seems about perfect. A 125cc scooter will likely be run full throttle most of the time. I have two 125 4 strokes, and they get ridden mostly at full throttle. Only way to keep up with traffic in town. I also ride them WOT on the highway (not freeway) They don't keep up with traffic, I'd just rather ride at 55 mph than 40 mph.
There really can't be much wrong with that carb. Other than a lawn mower carb (no float setup), it's about as simple as it gets. Simple round slide, no CV diaphragm or coasting enricher. Almost exactly like the old Bing on my Puch moped.
One thing I would double check, is how the slide, throttle cable, spring, and needle fit together. If I remember correctly, I had an issue with a Tomos moped (also converted from oil injection to premix) not running right, had the carb apart several times, couldn't find anything wrong, and finally discovered I had something assembled wrong after looking at a diagram of it. Can't remember what it was though.
Wow, I didn't expect the ENTIRE peanut gallery to chime in. This is exactly the kind of input I was hoping for. Thanks, guys.
I think before I was running probably a bit too rich, although I have yet to pull the plug to confirm this. I was running about 36 to 1, which seems excessively heavy on the oil side if I get what you're telling me. So 40 to 1 or 50 to 1 would be better?
As far as returning the oil induction to original specs, it is possible with a trip through the land of Ebay, where all the bits are to be had; all except the split cable that controls both the throttle and the oil pump. This could of course be jury rigged, so a complete resurrection is possible. Question is, would it be worth the $ and effort? Seems like maybe the answer is no.
So, this is what happened today: I checked my newly charged battery and that was OK. Then I put the carb back on, and this time ran a bit of grease around the two O-rings that hold the carb onto the intake. The PO had taken the scoot into the shop for the exact same problem that I've been having dying after warming up and then refusing to idle after that and all they did was replace the O-rings thinking that maybe there was an air leak. When I pulled the carb to clean it, it didn't seem particularly dirty, but I did run an electric guitar e string through the jet holes just to be sure.
So I put the carb back, set the mixture screw 1 and 3/4 turns out per specs, and hit the start button. She fired right up and sounded great! I guess the third time was the charm.
I spent the rest of the afternoon exploring the neighborhood, still not wanting to venture too far just in case I had to push her home, but nothing bad happened and I even crossed my first railroad tracks and got my first low five from a fellow motorcyclist! She is so fun to ride I can barely stand it, and can't wait to get back and ride her some more.
It's great to see how she was intended to ride and sound like, because since I've had her, she's always had one sort of problem or another. Maybe it's as you said, that these two stokes are really sensitive to air-fuel ratios. I squirted some WD-40 around the carb, airbox and intake to see if I had an airleak, but there was no indication of one.
So here are some beauty shots I took to mark my first trouble-free day on my Aero. It was colder than it looks, although my body temp never dipped to 94.9 like someone I know.
Thanks, all for helping me get back on the road and hopefully, staying there.
Santa Cruz, CA pier and the great Pacific Ocean.
Coconut Grove in background, where all the big bands used to appear back in the day.
Santa Cruz Beach Boardwalk in background. My new scoot with new luggage handling device attached.
I've heard from various sources that the ethanol in todays gas is has an ill effect on premix and pretty much renders the oil useless or at least compromises its ability to lubricate as intended.It however does not have near as much effect on injected oils.
Unfortunately, ethanol does bad things to all engines, both 2T and 4T. I have seen carbs completely destroyed by it, due to rust and corrosion. Rubber parts get melted. Common sense says ethanol should interfere with 2 stroke lubrication, and I'm sure it does. to some degree. But whether the oil is mixed with the gas or injected separately, it all still goes into the intake port together. One thing I do know, is that premix helps protect steel, aluminum, brass, and rubber fuel system parts from ethanol better than straight gas. Leaving premix in a carb for a while will cause less damage than just gas, because the oil itself helps prevent the damaging effects of ethanol. Gas evaporates completely, oil does not evaporate at all. So after the gas has evaporated out of the premix, it still leaves an oil coating on the parts.
I actually run premix in my 2 old cars, one 40 years old, the other 50. Not only does it make the gas last longer, but it helps protect the fuel system, and also helps lubricate the valves and upper cylinder. I use marine grade 2 stroke oil, which I get in 5 gallon cans. It is WAY cheaper than motorcycle 2 stroke oil in 1 qt bottles.
no, it leaves behind a gummy residue - as just about everyone who has let his motorcycle sit for months can attest, requiring you to take the carb apart and clean the goo from the tiny passages in the jets.
The deleterious effects of ethanol to rubber components happens over time, it doesn't melt rubber....it makes it brittle and prone to cracking.
It does affect the premix more because the oil is exposed to the ethanol for a long period of time where as the injected oil is dissipated into the cylinder and does its job immediately.I believe some of the chainsaw and such manufacturers post some kind of warning about storing premixed fuel.
Well since there's no getting around using gas in these beasts, my question is, in order to provide the best balance between fouling the plug or leaning the lubrication, what is the best mixture ratio for my 84 Honda 125cc two stoke? I just bought a fresh gallon of 91 octane and want to hear what everyone thought before adding any oil to it. It's running fine now (fingers crossed) on more-or-less eyeballed 34 to 1 as recommended by my PO's PO who seemed to have a long dirt bike pedigree.
Related question: A bike guy who comes into my wine shop all the time said that I don't need to use any fancy synthetic oil in my premix; that just regular old two-stroke oil was fine. What do you think?
BTW, by bf had an old 64 Comet wagon with the wonderful 289 engine and he used to add automatic transmission fluid to the gas at every full up. I thought it sounded crazy but it took him across the entire country with nary a hiccup.
50:1 is good and marine two stroke oil works great, it is very clean compared to regular two stroke oil. Yeah save yourself $$$, no need for synthetic. Wally World by the gallon is cheapest. Also don't think your bike needs 91octane, regular is best. Save your dough.
I have enjoyed following your rebuild progress with interest. Great work!
In regards to your premix questions I found the following quite informative
Keep up the good work and posts.
I've read that before. Gordon Jennings was one of my favorite authors. I have a paper copy of his Two Stroke Tuners Handbook. Really sad about what happened to all the two strokes.
Also done before ethanol came into the picture but results would still be the same.
Thanks for the words of encouragement! Also, that link was a great read. I guess doing a 32 to 1 premix is pretty much the way to go.
Right now, I've got my front tire off and a new Michelin fitted, but still need to take it into town in order to set the bead; we have a air compressor that we got from Sears, but it doesn't produce the high pressure necessary to deal with a tubeless tire. Works great on tube tires and tires that have already been set on their rims, and is so much easier than a bicycle pump.
Thought you figured out how to seat the bead back in post #31?
Well I figured it out as far as having Mike at Andy's do it for me. But I was hoping that my new air pump might do it without going back there, but it doesn't seem to produce the necessary amount of pressure. It's great for pumping up a tire that's flat, so there is that.
I'm finally off work for a few days so I am looking forward to getting my new front tire mounted and see if and how much it improves my handling. The old front tire was produced back in 2000 so the rubber's as hard as Chinese math.
One thing I do know is that motorcycle tires are easier to mount than scooter tires; something about their small cross section makes getting them off their rims a bit more of a struggle, especially when the rubber's old and cranky, even after heating them up in our sun room. Have you ever changed your own scooter tires?
Well, it's off to Andy's . . .
Yes, I have changed scooter tires, and you are right, their small diameter does make them harder to change. I used WD-40 on the beads, which makes them extremely slippery. Some will say WD-40 is not good for rubber. I have never had a problem using it on tires, I also use it on all the rubber and plastic parts in an intake system, like carb boots, and where rubber ducts connect to an airbox by fitting through a hole in the box. I've used it to lubricate 0-rings, and know of one person that gets a ridiculous number of miles out of his 0-ring chains using nothing but WD-40 on them. Aside from helping get the tire on, it also helps center the bead on the rim when inflating the tire. It does need to be washed off once you get the tire on and inflated. My '08 Vino 125 has been through 6 rear tires.
Very well said! I am enjoying your thread.
After reading about your efforts to get tires off, I am much more appreciative of the Stella's split rims and tubes :)
I have 4-5 scooters at any given time and ride the hell out of them and changing tires with simple tire irons and a small pancake compressor is relatively easy. The only thing I would have recommended would have been to replace the 30 yr old valvestems.
One thing about the Stella. The wheels are very soft metal and bend easily. When I got mine new, it had blackwall tubeless tires with tubes in them. I wanted wide whitewalls, so I removed the tubeless tires, and wound up using them on my Vino (same size) But it was very difficult to get them off even with the split rims. The beads on tubeless tires are a lot thicker and stiffer than tube type tires. I made one little dent in the back rim getting the tire off. Putting the new tube type tires on was a piece of cake. I eventually intend to replace the wheels with either chromed steel ones, or possibly one piece wheels which can use tubeless tires. Tubeless whitewalls used to be available, as replacements for the Buddy 150 International series, but may no longer be available.
I always replace the valve stems when I replace the tires. Valve stems are the one weak point of tubeless tires. Punctures can almost always be repaired with a plug, but a broken valve stem can mean removing the tire. Some of them can be replaced just by deflating the tire, breaking the bead, and pushing it in far enough to reach the valve stem hole. But a lot of them can't be done that way.
Many people with Stellas and Vespas put on aftermarket exhaust systems, blocking access to the nuts that hold the wheel on, meaning the exhaust has to be removed to get the wheel off. Not really an issue at home, but trying to remove a hot exhaust on the side of the road does not sound like fun. Especially if it is already 120 degrees outside
New valve stems is something that I did not even thing about. Thank you for the heads up, but now that the horse has run out of the barn, I can fix the gate.
So this morning I want back to Andy's Automotive to re-seat the bead since they did the rear tire with no issues. But when I got there, it was almost impossible to seat the bead because the rubber kept folding off the rim, even with a high pressure hose. I thought this would be easier since I stretched the tire out with cardboard inserts and left it in our sun-room to get nice and soft, but instead it refused to cooperate. After about a half and hour of epic struggle, Mike handed me back the tire and admitted defeat. He didn't charge me for his time, which was the first in a few favors I got today.
On his recommendation I went to this independent tire shop across town where he didn't think they would refuse to help me for working on a scooter tire. Apparently we have all become so sue-happy that no one is willing to help someone do something unless it is 100% in line with their stated business goals. A bicycle shop wouldn't patch my BF's inner tube on his 83 Honda XL250 because it was not a bicycle and the local tire shop would not patch it because it was not a car tire. I am glad that I am not a person travelling through town caught in this crazy situation.
Anyway, I went to this place that Mike sent me, and they in turn directed me around the back of their shop to a well-hidden but grandiose used bike dealer and repair shop specializing in Harley Davidsons: two floors of farkle. I walked in, fearing the usual rejection, and asked the guy behind the counter if he could seat my bead on my dinky little scooter tire. I felt like a kid visiting the principal's office for the first time. He took my tire and went into the shop and then returned about 3 minutes later with the tire perfectly beaded on the rim! I was prepared to pay up to $40 bucks for this service, but when I asked him how much I owed, he replied, "Nothing. It's only air." Wow. I love that. I was so impressed with this bit of unexpected generosity, especially after having so many petty setbacks along the way. Just goes to show you that you can't judge things by appearances, and even though I don't think I'll ever ride a Harley or give his shop much of my business I'll always remember this bit of graciousness, which is something that money can not buy.
So I got my front tire on and rode all afternoon in the suddenly balmy warmth that has returned to our little seaside community. I felt like today put me in touch with that two wheel community that binds us all together. Sure, we can and do defend what we consider to be the perfect machine for the perfect ride, but today reminded me of just how elastic that definition can be and the kindness of strangers has a special appeal at this time of year.
Anyone else out there have a similar story to share? I'd love to hear it.