The I LOVE THIS GUN Thread

Discussion in 'Shiny Things' started by HiTechRedneck, Nov 20, 2008.

  1. SnipTheDog

    SnipTheDog Been here awhile

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    For active duty, I can see being prepared to fire away. For non-active duty, there can be a balance between safety and readiness.
  2. pilot815

    pilot815 Long timer

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    Just like keeping your seatbelt off until you are just about to crash.
  3. Effendi

    Effendi Been here awhile

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    A well trained, practiced and disciplined individual will not have an ND. In 50 years of shooting starting when I was 7 I have never had an ND because I was trained properly from the outset and had that training reinforced. Self appointed gunshop commando's and those who read gun comics and watch youtube videos to gain their experience will likely have an ND along with exhibiting sloppy and unsafe range practices - I forget the number of times I have walked away from a firing point due to unsafe idiots on the range, and of course you can't tell them because their favourite youtube star does it like that.

    Glocks are inherently safe, as are most striker fired pistols, Glocks have 3 safety's that need to fail before it will go bang on its own - I and several others have tried to make Glocks fail, they just don't.

    Even back in the day when I used to do the formation ballet called building/room clearing or VIP protection in smokey, stressed situations we never had accidents. Up to 16 individuals armed with HK's and pistols, live ammunition, sometimes going both directions, and no one had an ND. It is all down to training, continual practice and discipline.

    I will add to this: There is the Israeli military and police taught method of carrying with an empty chamber. I personally do not like this method. I have an Israeli friend who carried a firearm for 30+ years for work and still carries one today as a civilian. Boy have we argued about carrying loaded and empty. I can beat him to a target hit every time, but he states it is more about safety than hitting the target. We still argue about it.

    See the Israeli method here:

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  4. pilot815

    pilot815 Long timer

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    I'll add equipment selection on to that. A couple years ago we got some Safariland holsters issued to us. Within a month or so we were directed to cease using them. They had some tab hanging off, that under the right circumstances would engage the trigger while holstering, resulting in an ND.
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  5. Backlund

    Backlund Been here awhile

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    My recently acquired Llama .380 is going to need some work to help it run right. During my range session with it, it would fail to completely eject the fired case from the chamber literally every other round from the magazine. It would pull the empty out about 1/2-2/3 and leave it there, with the slide locking back. I'm no gunsmith, but logic would indicate a problem with the extractor.

    I didn't buy the Llama with any intention of relying on it for anything serious, just a casual range gun, but it would be nice to have it work better.
    IMG_20191025_223454252.jpg
  6. Effendi

    Effendi Been here awhile

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    Indeed, pick your equipment carefully, invest a little more if spending your own money (if you can only afford the cheap crap then save a little and wait till next month), and never be afraid to speak out expressing concerns if it is officially issued.

    I saw this one coming like it was a 4th of July parade with an accompanying helicopter fleet flyover. Nice idea, but average people just do not practice enough to make stuff work well - going to the range once a month with 100 rounds of 9mm is not practice, it's more like pissing in the wind.

    https://www.fletc.gov/sites/default...g-room/training-information/holisterStudy.pdf

    .
  7. Barnaby'sDad

    Barnaby'sDad Been here awhile

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    I bet. That’s why you have training and procedures like this...to help mitigate the “been up for 12+ hours and not firing on all cylinders” thing.

    Not counting ND’s that occurred “on the job”...I’ve known multiple people over the years that owned up to sending a round through their floor or wall during “cleaning”/finger-banging of their firearm.

    If you’ve spent time on a gun board....I’m sure you’ll run into at least one or two people that thought their cleaning/fingering-banging ND was funny, as no one happened to get hurt.

    Edit: To get back on track (apologies for derailing the thread)...this one is my favorite.

    4BE6E5FE-0022-4562-9448-8D88786BB1AF.jpeg
  8. Effendi

    Effendi Been here awhile

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    I try and avoid the X-Spurts* on gun boards.

    The worst I ever knew of was in the UK, an acquaintance, friend of a friend, he was a rifle shooter. He was sat in his front room cleaning and polishing his Weatherby, I remember it was a Weatherby. Once he had cleaned it three or four times he started cycling the action and used a live round to make sure everything was ejecting properly. Then the bang happened. The round exited the barrel, hit his carpeted floor, tore up the carpet for a good 18 inches, then the round continued out through the front window breaking the glass, the round then went through the upstairs bedroom window over the road, broke that glass too and woke up the child sleeping in the room, went through the ceiling, carried on through the attic till it hit a roof tile, broke that, and that was the last they could trace of the round. We reckoned that hitting the fired clay roof tile would have taken the lethal energy out of the round, but it could still hurt if it hit you.

    Shit can happen, but it is usually associated with stupid, or bad decisions.

    Note: * X-Spurt. X = the unknown factor. Spurt is a drip under pressure.
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  9. Chaplain

    Chaplain Been here awhile Supporter

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    I think it was inmate Effendi that said:

    "I will add to this: There is the Israeli military and police taught method of carrying with an empty chamber. I personally do not like this method. I have an Israeli friend who carried a firearm for 30+ years for work and still carries one today as a civilian. Boy have we argued about carrying loaded and empty. I can beat him to a target hit every time, but he states it is more about safety than hitting the target. We still argue about it."

    It was years ago that I participated in writing a staff study on arming a group that could be armed by the order of the Governor, but that prior to that order would have NO OFFICIAL TRAINING, and there was no budget for even having sidearms or rifles in storage. So, get this: there had to be a plan to arm a previously unarmed force, and we could not even predict what the force would be armed with!

    This is a formula for an unmitigated disaster of colossal proportions. The only similar problem I could find in recent history was the problem faced by the Israel Defense Force IDF in the early years. Much of that force was armed with whatever could be purchased in reasonable lots on a budget, or whatever was captured on the battle field and repurposed.

    For side arms, the IDF decided that revolvers were just too obsolete. And, in the interest of logistics sanity, It was best if everything were 9mm. There was a need for a manual of arms that would work equally well with a Browning Hipower, a Helwan knockoff of the Beretta Brigadier, or a CZ whatever. Assume a mix of single and double action 9mm of varying capacity and with safeties in all different places.

    This being the case, full mag and empty chamber makes sense. No matter what you are issued (or pick up) if you train to draw, rack, form sight picture, squeeze trigger - you can function with just about anything. Is it fastest? No. But, can you train a lot of people to be REASONABLY EFFECTIVE with a great variety of sidearms under severe constraints of training time and unpredictability of sidearm availability? I can't think of a better way to get to a high percentile of effectiveness for the greatest number of persons given the above criteria.

    Is this the way I drill and train for CCW as a civilian, No. It is not the best idea. But If I had to train 500 or 5000 or 50,000 personnel in short order with God knows what sidearm for self protection / force protection / facilities protection under sever time and budget constraints - and have a minimally trained force shoot each other (or the wrong personnel) as infrequently as possible, the IDF manual of arms seems a good idea.
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  10. Effendi

    Effendi Been here awhile

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    I agree it is a good idea for that scenario of rapidly training many previously untrained and inexperienced personnel. However, my Israeli man insisted that even the more elite and specialised units in Israel use the empty chamber method. I will freely admit that some of the Israelis are pretty damn quick, but the majority not so much as like everywhere they do not put in the range time or dri-fire time.
  11. Chaplain

    Chaplain Been here awhile Supporter

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    Yep - exactly so.

    I'll wager that most of the elite units in Israel have the 'institutional' memory of the 'way it has always been done'. This, added to the muscle memory of the training that (almost) everybody in Israel gets is likely the empty chamber method. So when one joins an 'elite' unit - in order to train to a new standard one must 'untrain' muscle memory of the way you've been doing it for the years before. So, the institutional doctrine is 'our way is best'. and for them, it probably is.

    The (late) man I knew at Aberdeen Proving Grounds (psychologist for reviewing Army training and evaluating small arms impact on the enemy) would probably have some insight. But I wonder if under the stress of combat the elite guys who trained empty chamber early on (and these would be among the few who really did train hard on their own time too) would revert to deeply embedded muscle memory anyway. Hard to say without a real study and data.

    Personally, I did a fair amount of DA fire with a Smith J frame early on in my firearms experience. So, in moving to semi autos, I selected those with a long DA like trigger and no other safety switch for CCW. While the mechanism is vastly different, the 'manual of arms in use' is identical. (grip, draw, look at the front sight, squeeze until bang, repeat as necessary). So, I carry with one in the chamber, just like with a revolver.

    For me, personally, the IDF procedure would be no good - I would have to retrain...extensively.

    I did notice in competitive shooting that my time with a 1911 was always longer than long time 1911 users - probably because I had to think (safety off - shoot - safety on) I did better with a Glock - it was more revolver like - and fit my trained muscle memory better. Those who ALWAYS trained/used a 1911 and did not have to think about it had the advantage of a better trigger. I did not train to that level (still did pretty good...sometimes, but that was a long time ago now).

    This is truly a 'different folks, different strokes' adage application.
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  12. FatChance

    FatChance Road Captain

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    I would think it is easier to transition from empty chamber training to loaded chamber training than the opposite. At worst, they would extract one unfired round in the process as long as they racked the slide properly using the older training method. But then again, I was never a professional like some of the much more experienced posters in this thread.
  13. Effendi

    Effendi Been here awhile

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    I have shot since the age of 7 when we lived in Aden (Yemen) where my dad was stationed as a member of the British Army and taught me how to drifire and strip the L1A1, Sterling and Browning and actually shoot with a .22. I moved through the school .22 club, police .22 rifle team, shot pistol and later joined the army in my early 20's where I was handed an L1A1, I can still field strip one blindfolded, set up and fire one, and even do rifle drill with one as a reflex because basic training ingrained all aspects of that particular rifle into me.

    I have to work at learning other weapon systems. I keep it simple owning only Glocks and not trying to remember how to manipulate any one of a half dozen different pistols like many do - "hmmmm, which pistol shall I carry today", recipe for a disaster waiting to happen. Same with rifles, nowadays living in the US I stick with AR layout systems preferring to go with Sig, for shotguns a exclusively own Mossbergs. Keep it simple, don't over complicate things and you will not go far wrong. I fell into being able to use Glocks quite quickly having been a fiend with S&W revolver's back in the day when we could have such things in the UK.
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  14. Uke

    Uke visualist Super Supporter

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    BINGO, hence my intuitive choice (note, not for everyone) is for a revolver: draw, aim, pull trigger, repeat as necessary. My personal bet (perhaps with my life) is that I'm far more likely to encounter a situation with a single target that a half dozen or more, and not at 7 yards, but 7 feet. It will come down to one shot, if a follow-up is necessary then all bets are off. My choice is a hammerless (spurless) Ruger SP-101 .357 Mag with Crimson Trace laser grips loaded with 135gr Federal Hydro-Shock. For now this works for me. I hope I never have to bet my life on it, which actually I do most every day.
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  15. NWBoon

    NWBoon Been here awhile

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    Modern fighting handguns are designed to be carried and engaged with a round in the chamber. With the exception of the Israelis, everyone who trains with pistols always carries with a round in the chamber. For non professionals, just watch an IDPA match. Every law enforcement and military personnel will have a round in the chamber for duty.

    There is one exception and I don’t even know if this applies today. I was an Army CID Agent back in 2000 - 2004, and learned that the Army MP’s didn’t have a round in the chamber of their Beretta M92 pistols. I thought that was weird and a recipe for failure if the Sh*t hit the fan. I was an Infantryman prior to CID and we chambered a round in our M16’s and M4’s prior to going on a patrol.
  16. gratefulJED

    gratefulJED long strange tripper

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    Well....to be honest, it was just a bit longer than 20 years, my buddy had a need for my van, the weapons were prolly less than the van value, and he thought he stole the van from me with the trade. I was OK, I was helping a friend out and I like rifles. The one thing he said at the end that ummm made him very mad in later years was, “dude, don’t ever sell these weapons”. One of those factory valmet mags is worth more than that van today. Today and for the past few years we haven’t spoken because he thinks I somehow took advantage of him. Arghhh,
  17. Chaplain

    Chaplain Been here awhile Supporter

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    Since is the 'I love this gun thread' I have a special affinity for the SP101. My daughter has appropriated my DAO short barrel .357. So I am reduced to my 4" .22, 4" .357, and short barrel DA/SA .357. There is really something to be said for the Ruger design. Remove ONE SCREW holding the grips on, and everything that moves can come apart. It is about as sturdy as a hammer, and could be used as one without damage. And, if you're gonna shoot .357 loads in a small revolver, it will do so all day. I keep thinking I need a 9mm SP101, just because....
  18. RustyStuff

    RustyStuff Long timer Supporter

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    This has been a interesting discussion.
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  19. Uke

    Uke visualist Super Supporter

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    Not to be antagonistic, but I'd opt for .38 +P before going with a 9mm and the whole moon clip thing.

    The whole point of my post was defensive reflexive shooting, as in, don't think, just do it if you KNOW your life is on the line. That and practice, practice, practice and practical practice at that, don't just stand in front of a 15' paper bullseye with pistol in hand and think of that as practice.

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  20. dmason

    dmason goofball

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    For those of you with professional as well as competition experience, how well do you view regular participation in USPSA events as “training”? There is an individual in my area who offers rifle and pistol combat training, and my LEO friend (detective) has taken his courses and says he is legit.

    I’d like to do some of his programs but they’re expensive. Up to this point I’ve done 12 or 15 competitive matches. Thoughts?