The tipping point is right around the corner.

Discussion in 'Shiny Things' started by MJSfoto1956, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,680
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    Family & I just took our 85kW Tesla on a 4000 mile roundtrip, fully loaded (camping gear, cargo roof box, & 5 people), from LA to Vancouver British Columbia and back this summer, no problem.

    35BF5F02-A9B8-46E5-ABCA-4061327B2EE4.jpeg 27673BCC-C761-45E8-847E-239BA3BF10FF.jpeg B12CB604-9A04-4340-9BF3-C562F9969B67.jpeg

    Coastlines, deserts, Olympic National Forrest, campsites, Redwood forests, mountain lakes, you name it.. there’s practically no where we won’t drive our EV.

    3804E23E-9FE3-45E7-90D2-B2B35A7BB95B.jpeg 891C6DE5-17A6-4FD7-A75F-0024D049AEB9.jpeg DC08E4FC-896F-45B1-B0A2-F0A741E15528.jpeg CC003883-C469-410E-9E9A-ABC8910FF096.jpeg

    Over 94,000 miles through California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and Canada and no problems. Only maintenance so far? Replacing tires. Not even brake pads yet! Easily the least expensive car to operate/maintain I’ve ever owned. I will happily buy another.

    2A8FCC77-95F3-4B00-8C37-0199A99399B5.jpeg 214B8BEB-3CC9-4A87-A520-E6AA7302BC46.jpeg 8BE2F504-C8E6-4D80-AF09-60AB0D3FAEF2.jpeg

    Experience has been so good, our family has only purchased, and will continue to purchase only electric vehicles, including motorcycles.
  2. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Oddometer:
    7,167
    Location:
    NH
    You just saved me from having to dig up the countless youtube videos of people doing just that.
    MJSfoto1956 and voltsxamps like this.
  3. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Oddometer:
    2,112
    Location:
    AZ
    And horse owners in the 18th century would have been right to say so even though mechanized travel did eventually replace them


    I'm not saying a practical EV for touring (without huge strings attached to destinations, "refueling" times and locations, travel routes, etc.) is not going to happen, it's inevitable, but it's just not going to happen as fast as the optimists seem to think, particularly if relying on secondary electrical cells for energy storage since advantages there are happening more asymptotically than exponentially


    I got into electric bikes before they were a thing... but they are not even remotely well-suited for touring... so it's not like my head is in the sand - quite the opposite...
  4. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1,680
    Location:
    +positively grounded-
    Glad the post helped :)

    Our next journey: LA to Austin, Texas in the spring. Perhaps we’ll even keep going all the way to Florida!

    C13776EB-480F-44D2-94DC-2E637480A358.jpeg

    Fast charging via Superchargers are what makes the journey practically effortless. In about the same time it takes to use the restroom and finish eating, the vehicle has already sufficiently recharged. Electrify America is rapidly deploying chargers nationwide that are about as capable as Tesla’s Superchargers, though it’ll be another year I think before they’ll have enough in place for non-Tesla vehicles to achieve the same quick recharges for easy multi-state travel. When it does though, I expect many more vehicles to come equipped with larger (faster) on-board charging to take advantage of the faster charging capabilities.

    2692CD76-E77B-4AE2-A514-62E63A23297B.jpeg 297A1286-E6CA-446D-BBA9-A94E52C3E875.jpeg

    Currently Tesla’s can recharge up to 250kW/hr, equivalent of about 1000 miles/hr, requiring as little as 7 minutes or so to travel 100 miles. Since their max range is up to 373 miles on a full charge, you have a lot of flexibility with how long you wish to charge. For our roundtrip to/from Canada, we only needed to charge to 70-80% mostly and recharged with around 20-30% remaining, with an average stop of less than 30 min. Only on two occasions did we find we needed to charge up to 90% in order to make the waypoint with sufficient charge as a buffer, which would require upwards of 45min to an hour to recharge.


    Charging speeds taper more as you approach 100%, so it is more efficient to cycle charging between 20-80% vs 40-100% for example. Speeds averaged 70+mph on the freeways depending on speed limits with A/C on. No need to hypermile and would frequently pass slower moving traffic as needed without worrying about not having enough range. The navigation will let you know if you need to travel more slowly if you’re stretching your electrons between stops and figures it all out for you anyways, making it as easy as entering in the destination and letting the car select charge points automatically and for how long. It even calculates your estimated state of charge (%) each time upon arrival, giving you the confidence to travel without worry.

    Sometimes sufficient charge would complete before we’d finish eating! In more populous areas, especially along the west coast, we could pass 2 or 3 supercharger locations before actually needing one, as they are spaced out on average every 75 miles worldwide, but more populous areas would have some stations as close as 4 miles apart as they do in parts of California. Oh, and the cost to recharge for the entire 4000 mile trip over the summer? Zero. Vehicle came with free Supercharging for life!

    So many, that I’ve only charged at a non- Superchargers once just to see if it would work. It did of course, but the charge rate is so much slower than what Tesla supplies that I’ve never bothered since, but it’s nice knowing I could use the multitudes of other charge points as well if needed. For those like myself who would like to travel coast to coast on an electric motorcycle, a network of L3 fast charging stations, like the ones Electrify America, EvGo, ChargePoint, Sena, and others put out, will make it possible to travel great distances with as much ease as I currently do in the Tesla.

    Apps, like PlugShare, show charge points in the areas you’d like to travel. In addition, there’s apps that allow homeowners to share their high speed home connections peer to peer called EV Match. They can get reimbursed actual kW cost (national average ~12 cents/kW) or a little on top of their local rate if they wish. Factor in all the RV L2 charge points too if you like, and one finds there are far more places to charge than expected!

    Attached Files:

    kiwial, jsinclair and MJSfoto1956 like this.
  5. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Oddometer:
    2,112
    Location:
    AZ
    It takes about 2-3 minutes max to put >400mi in a [relative to EV] inexpensive liquid fueled vehicle and it would be very difficult to travel that >400mi anywhere I want in this country and almost every other without finding plenty of places to top off - to me that's the requirements for touring and EV has plenty far to go in vehicles that are not just a little more costly


    A couple of years ago I hopped in my old car (purchase price in 2007 - $12K) to go to my ailing mother's place outside Bend OR from here outside PHX. I drove through NV and eastern OR. Straight through both ways at ~75mph speeds nearly the whole way. Stopped maybe three-four times each way for no more than five minutes. A long drive but not brutal. Good luck with that in an EV anytime soon. If I had to stop long enough to recharge even if the stations to do so could have been found (100's of miles where even gas was scarce) it would not have been a one day trip. That is a very typical "touring" use case for me.


    Not to mention moto touring in Mexico (this is an adventure moto board after all)


    It remains to be seen but I'm a skeptic
  6. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Oddometer:
    7,167
    Location:
    NH
    Said all I would have, though I would say electrify America has already achieved much of the empty space filling. As of now I can go from New Hampshire all the way to Colorado to visit my in-laws with my Chevrolet Bolt. It's only going to get better.
    voltsxamps and MJSfoto1956 like this.
  7. hamiamham

    hamiamham Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    650
    I know I am going to get cyber-stoned for this but here we go...

    I think a few - lets call them - realities are missing from this conversation. In no particular order...

    EV legislation - read the wikipedia article entitled Phase Out of Fossil Fuel Vehicles.

    Cost - From Loup Ventures; 5 year total cost of ownership comparison between Tesla Model 3 (46c/mile), Toyota Camry (49c/mile) and Audi A5 (80c/mile)

    Convenience - Lets say I fuel up once a week. Takes me 5 mins to get to the gas station, 5 mins to fuel up, and five mins to get back to my house. So a total of 15mins X 52 weeks a year = 13 hours. Compare that to - umm - zero mins if you charge at home.

    Charging Speed - the time it takes to charge an EV is not linear. That is, the time it takes to get from 0% to 10% is a fraction of the time it takes to get from 90% to 100%. 0%-10% = 6 mins / 0%-50% = 23 mins / 90%-100% 51mins

    Range Anxiety - At 70mph you will take the battery from 100% to 0% in about 4.25 hours and will have traveled just shy of 300 miles. You stop for 23 mins, recharge from 0%-50%, gain another 155 miles of range, and go on your merry way. So over 6 hours of driving and over 450 miles in distance all with a 23 min stop.

    Yea but that 23 min stop is a total waste of my time! Just take it out of the 13 HOURS you saved not having to go to the gas station

    And if you don't believe me; Using data obtained from the Department of Transport’s 2009 National Household Travel Survey (NHTS), Garrett Fitzgerald and Rob van Haaren analyzed the travel data of survey participants, concluding that 95 percent of the 748,918 recorded single-trip journeys by car were under 30 miles. More astonishingly, around 98 percent of all single-trip journeys were under 50 miles in length, with trips over 70 miles in length accounting for just one percent of all single-trip journeys.

    Can't find the statistic but that would indicate a fraction of a percent of trips were over 300 miles.

    Here is an idea; buy an EV and for the once or twice a year you go on a long trip; rent a car.
    imnothng, kiwial, voltsxamps and 2 others like this.
  8. _CJ

    _CJ Rugged Individualist

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2010
    Oddometer:
    3,211
    Location:
    The 719
    [​IMG]

    :lol3



    .
    more koolaid and Rollin' like this.
  9. jsinclair

    jsinclair Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Oddometer:
    234

    Awesome!
    To be fair I never said you couldn't take a trip in a pure EV. We don't have a Tesla yet, but going to test-drive a model 3 Saturday.
    voltsxamps likes this.
  10. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Oddometer:
    2,112
    Location:
    AZ
    I'll be buying a four wheel vehicle next year

    I bought the car I have now in '07 - it had ~25Kmi for $12K cash (no payments for me). I've got ~165Kmi on it and intend to keep it for local driving. It gets ~25mpg city and ~35mpg at 75mph cruise which is pretty typical cruise speed on tour (admittedly it might be more :evil ).

    I require ability to tour every two to four weeks at short notice (renting is out) mostly AZ mountains and desert but also out-of-state in the western states, seldom anywhere near the coastal urbanity. I don't have the patience to take more than five minutes to achieve at least 250-400mi range during a "fill" and more in less would be valued. I suppose if there was enough value I could take ten minutes but it would drive me crazy (I hate losing the inertia) so it would have to be a lot of value. My overnights on the road aren't likely to easily support charging. Since the old car will handle the local commuting for likely years to come with little more cost than gas, tires and basic PM, new car will be primarily touring at least for the first few years.

    I love the idea of an EV - for so many reasons. I have an open mind. I won't rule it out until money is in hand and ready to spend.

    I can presently buy a car with ~30Kmi for ~$15K cash (at least last I checked) - I do not ever purchase vehicles on credit, only cash and used so I don't eat the depreciation. My little research into things says that not only can I not get an EV that fits my requirements (touring in the remote parts of the western US, five minute fills) but even if I had the patience to take longer on fills and could even find places to fill in my travels the EV would bust the ~$15K budget...


    Maybe when I get to the point of doing what I'm planning next year the next time which based on my several decades track record will be 12-15years from now an EV might be more practical or my requirements might change enough to support one... Maybe when the existing car is retired in several years and maybe if I'm just looking for a commuter to augment the vehicle I buy next year, an EV might fit the budget...

    We'll see.... I truly wish I were more optimistic...


    For those who have requirements and a budget that better support the EV model, I'm somewhat envious... oh well...


    Let's hope we all can stay in motion as much as we are now - however we go about doing it!!!

    :ricky
  11. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Oddometer:
    7,167
    Location:
    NH
    Careful, you might like it.
    jsinclair and voltsxamps like this.
  12. longslowdistance

    longslowdistance Long timer Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Oddometer:
    1,646
    Location:
    Virginia
    All true.
    And I'll add: If it was just an economics argument, seems easy. But people make decisions on more than just economics. Why are people buying Teslas and Zeros and other electric cars? Because they are early adopters, can afford it, and the vehicles are amazing, within their limitations. I invite any and all doubters to take a test ride. Sure you may not buy, but I'll wager you'll recalibrate your set points for acquiring your own EV. Sure someone will chime in "I need to go 500 miles between stops" and for them and EV is no where close at present. But that's a small minority.
    Baja Ho and voltsxamps like this.
  13. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Oddometer:
    5,047
    Location:
    Seattle
    Buy used. Except for Tesla, the prices on used drop ridiculously fast.
    emptyHead likes this.
  14. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Oddometer:
    2,112
    Location:
    AZ
    I heard it said that everyone that drives a tesla wants one...... but that only a few buy one....
  15. jsinclair

    jsinclair Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2014
    Oddometer:
    234
    We love our little i3 at the moment, but getting away from gas entirely would be nice, not sure if it's $700 a month nice though...
  16. smdub

    smdub Adventurer

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2017
    Oddometer:
    80
    Location:
    Maryland
    I think most of you argument is quite valid except the points below:
    Who drives to a gas station to only go to a gas station? I pass four on my way to work every day. Prob another half dozen within a minute or two of the road if I take an exit. My parents are the opposite and live in the country. They have to drive 20min to get to anything. They also never drive just to the gas station. They fill up while they are on the way to/from another store. So your 13hrs/yr is really more like 5*min*52wks=4hrs/yr. Most of that is while I'm already accounting for the time - like to/from work or going out to lunch so the actual impact to my life is even far less than that. Charging at home is a benefit but don't blow it out of proportion.

    Yes, but to be fair a 23min stop is at a very inconvenient time. I take a long trip to see my parents a couple times a year. We do it late at night to avoid traffic. The time it would take to charge would be time I don't have anything else to do except sit there and count the electrons. Charging time still isn't convenient as it could be - its why they are looking to do battery swaps and design bigger/faster charging stations. If it wasn't a real problem they wouldn't be spending so much effort to improve it.

    One could probably make a more sucessful argument that the convenience and time saving of charging at home simply balances out the rare inconvenience to sit at a charger on long trips. No more, no less.

    That is an idea that many overlook. People 'rent' a plane to go on long trips. They forget to extend this idea to their own car since they already own one. I've rented cars to go on trips to either save wear/tear on my own or get a different kind of vehicle. Though if it was your only car and a family emergency happened you can't just go get a rental at odd-hours. That is a real concern for some people that can't be casually dismissed.

    I've driven a lot of electric vehicles (I used to design EV drives.) A coworker has a model 3. Peppy but its ugly as **** inside and out. Everything about it screams cheap (and I *HATE* the one-pedal driving 'feature' which their drivers seem to use to completely disupt the flow of traffic by not driving smoothly. Makes typical automatic drivers even worse about stop/go but I digress.) The S is *MUCH* nicer in comparison. I tried to buy a used one this year but Tesla's CPO program is a joke and left me pissed off. Have another friend w/ an i3 w/ rage extender option he likes a lot. Bought it off lease cheap. My wife's little hyundai suv is getting old. We will likely look to replace it w/ a Bolt or Kona. Would be perfect since we have other vehicles to take on long trips. Electric cars are here. They make sense (and cents) for some, but not all, situations.
    Allucaneat likes this.
  17. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 12, 2017
    Oddometer:
    487
    Location:
    Boston, MA
    Of course, urban/suburban riders don't have the range anxiety that those in rural areas (legitimately) do. Given that urban/suburban demographic is 80% of the potential EV market, expect manufacturers to address their needs first. Rural folks are simply going to have to wait for the market to respond to their needs over time. Gonna be an interesting next ten years!
  18. Cataract2

    Cataract2 Where to?

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Oddometer:
    7,167
    Location:
    NH
    Honestly, I drove both the Model 3 and Chevy Bolt. In the end I decided to go with the Bolt as I and my wife felt it drove better than the Model 3. I also like how the Bolt comes with Android Auto integration which lets me take advantage of the computer in the pocket.
  19. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2015
    Oddometer:
    5,047
    Location:
    Seattle
    And by "a few" you mean more people try to buy them than Tesla can make them?
    voltsxamps likes this.
  20. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2002
    Oddometer:
    2,112
    Location:
    AZ
    I'm not sure how you read that into the statement - it's certainly not what I took away when I heard it

    More that people that have driven them like them a lot but don't want to pay the price for them