The tipping point is right around the corner.

Discussion in 'Shiny Things' started by MJSfoto1956, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. jsinclair

    jsinclair Been here awhile

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    The thing your missing is that.
    #1 90%+ of your charging will be at home, fast charging is only for road trips or the very few people who drive 40,000mi a year.

    In regards to cost, while the upfront cost is greater, long term costs are significantly less.
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  2. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    I don't think I'm missing a thing - I realize all that

    I will be purchasing a vehicle next year and as I explained earlier I think EV won't meet my requirements for my somewhat frequent longer distance travel out of town (touring) and no where near my budget of ~$15K for purchase cost. I don't do financing (even the house is paid for, has been for a long time) - not because of poor credit, mine's outstanding, but my income fluctuates wildly year-to-year so I find it unwise to have any unnecessary monthly costs for the dry spells.

    Maybe the next vehicle in a decade or so might be EV, I don't see how next year's will be
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  3. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    So you're a highly unusual buyer, and it is not very likely that car manufacturers will start catering to your needs before they exhaust other, easier to please, segments of the population.
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  4. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    Around here, I'm not terribly unusual... at least my 4wheel vehicle usage and purchasing :wink:

    It may just be the crowds I run in but a lot of folks I hang with have very similar touring requirements... one of the reasons many of us live out here in the wide open west is to go enjoy the backcountry often and distances out here are far.... Personally I enjoy doing a ton of miles... it's why I started riding "adventure motos" decades ago - started "moto adventure touring" in the late '70's but we didn't know what to call it then... and frankly I'd think in this forum I'm not terribly unusual in that regard... well I guess unless a lot of folks here are just posers which could easily be the case...
  5. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    So 1 in 5 Americans live in rural regions. And gasoline works for y'all and electric is many years off to address your use-cases. We get that. Nothing wrong with it. But your gas and its infrastructure and its externalities are currently being subsidized by all of us. And the real costs are not apparent to the consumers of gasoline. So the rest of us (i.e. the other 80% of Americans) are just saying what needs to be said: let us have our subsidies for EVs and we'll call it a deal. Oh, and stop whining about it too would be nice.
  6. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    Clearly some people don't get it and I don't share their pollyanna view - EV's that replace cars/trucks/SUV's will get here in due time but it's not tomorrow

    Personally, I want a transport/touring EV that's practical

    Heck, I've been ahead in the EV game - I got into electric bicycles close to four years ago and I've got more than 12,000km on them... electric is very practical for a bicycle (acknowledging not for long distance, cross country touring) and the first year I started doing that I saw maybe four or five others in all my riding... maybe having built and ridden them so much has illuminated the serious limitations to larger EV's to me
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  7. more koolaid

    more koolaid Been here awhile

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  8. ScottieDucati

    ScottieDucati Adventurer

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  9. smdub

    smdub Adventurer

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    No it isn't. The road expenditures per mile traveled is the same in DC as South Dakota. The three cheapest states are Tennessee, Missouri, and Indiana (all mostly rural.) They are half the per capita road spending of MA (where you are from) for example.
    https://www.urban.org/policy-center...ighway-and-road-expenditures#Question1Highway
  10. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    My pessimism is more about the focus on Li-ion and I just don't see secondary electrochemical cells in general getting to a satisfactory cost, weight, capacity, performance and time to fill in the near term (if ever)

    Let me see if I can stir the pot in a different direction

    With a hydrogen infrastructure there are already [subsidized] fully EV's being manufactured that would likely solve many of the energy storage issues in the long term. E.g. Toyota Mirai
  11. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    No it isn't. Infrastructure expenses PER CAPITA are significantly cheaper in metropolitan areas. As such, metropolitan areas subsidize the rest of the country. Accept it and get over it. After all, taxes are computed per capita last time I looked.

    Worse, these infrastructure expenses become a long-term liability that rural/exurban communities simply cannot afford to maintain without further subsidies. In short, the current system is not sustainable. And we are not willing or able to pay for it anymore. Here is but one high-level overview of what the problem is: https://usa.streetsblog.org/2015/03...re-than-twice-as-much-as-compact-development/
  12. smdub

    smdub Adventurer

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    Fail. The link you provided is per household not even per capita. Mine was per mile traveled. CO2/HC emissions and gasoline taxes are not computed per capita "last time I looked".
    Yes I know gas taxes don't break even anymore but they haven't been adjusted in ages. They do in many other countries and could be changed here.
    "Get over it" as you so eloquently put it.
  13. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    Fail again. You pick apart a single link. There are dozens of white papers and publications that make the point better than I ever could. You can stay in your bubble and pretend that folks in the rural areas pay their way for their infrastructure -- the fact is clear: they don't. The rest of us subsidize them. And I assume that means you. Be grateful for our help.
  14. SteveAZ

    SteveAZ Long timer

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    Pitting urban vs. rural in the US seems a fool's errand IMO :nod
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  15. OldManSandman

    OldManSandman Not really old

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    I’ve really enjoyed (most) of this thread. I’m on the west coast. We started seeing the odd EV / Tesla rolling around, now you pretty much see them all the time. They are the car to have now. Kids think they are cool. Guys I work with have them. The acceleration is unreal. I Will have an EV as soon as an electric pick up truck becomes a good purchase for me.

    If, or quite possibly when, Toyota releases a hybrid or hydrogen truck, they will likely get some more money from me. Oh, more headroom too Toyota - wtf is with the cab sizes you create these days? Headroom will be one of the reasons I’ll switch manufacturers.

    A plug in hybrid would be an agreeable option until a long distance EV is available. Full electric for the short hops, and switch to ICE for longer, or more frequent trips. Perhaps a hydrogen truck would be the way to go for that? Would like to hear the opinions of people in the industry.
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  16. ADVDucs33

    ADVDucs33 Been here awhile

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    Agree with above. However, normally I don't do this kind of thing and Mark Twain warned us of this kind of behavior. But, last time I was through Boston the roads were awful. :flush
    Since you mentioned it, I'm soooo grateful for you all civilized cosmopolitans subsidizing us country bump-kins, my roads are nice and smooth- even the dirt ones. Musta be the big citys where all the moneys come from...:amazon

    Why can't we just talk about the ever growing number of EV options in the moto industry? Have you seen the electrification of China's moto fleets in the last few years? Since 4 out of 5 Americans aren't rural hill billies, a scooter or e-bike for the sub 40 mile days makes a lot of sense.
    I'm looking at getting a Sur Ron Light Bee in the spring for short rural playing up in the 80 acres of woods behind my house. For the cost and quality, I think they are the bees knees.
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  17. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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  18. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    Truth. Urban areas (large and small) subsidize the infrastructure used by rest of the country. And that explains why urban roads suck -- the money is being diverted to subsidize infrastructure that the rural citizens couldn't possibly afford to build or maintain on their own. And given that corporations don't pay their fair share anymore, that just means folks like me are doing the bulk of the paying.
  19. AmbientMoto

    AmbientMoto Adventurer

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    Interesting thread and a good/needed conversation. I agree that we will see a huge shift in the next 10-20 years. Don't get me wrong, I LOVE the sound of an ICE and will always have a gasoline bike in the garage. Tinkering, maintenance, and the related pursuits that a gasoline bike requires are therapeutic. That being said, our next vehicle purchase, be it bike or car, will most likely be an EV. Sure... the manufacture chain is still dependent on fossil fuels, but we're not buying because we want to "save the earth"... I think electric is a superior technology.

    Despite often being the main discussion concerning EV's, range is rarely an issue, and when it is, you can usually find a fast charger. We've all run out of gas before... just takes some planning whatever you're riding. Motorcycles may be a bit trickier, especially with the ADV crowd because we want to get on the bike and RIDE without having to stop.

    Electric is coming. It's low maintenance, the operating costs are extremely low, and it's FUN... which is why, at least in the US, most of us ride in the first place!
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  20. jsinclair

    jsinclair Been here awhile

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    A used BMW i3 rex would meet your requirements, she drives ours 55 miles a day for about $1.72 in electricity. And the little gas engine allows us to take it on trips. It isn't as straight forward as driving a normal gas car across the country, mostly due to its Harley Sportster like gasoline tank.
    We live in rural northern Wisconsin, and tend to have somewhere to go that's at least 200 miles away every other weekend.
    We've taken it to Colorado and back, and would take it anywhere you can get a rwd car.
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