The tipping point is right around the corner.

Discussion in 'Shiny Things' started by MJSfoto1956, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. NikonsAndVStroms

    NikonsAndVStroms Beastly Photographer

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    I haven't talked about safety concerns, they have issues well beyond any potential ones there. The big problem you first need to deal with is energy density per a given volume.

    And then the issue if efficiency has come up a lot. Both with combustion and fuel cells you lose out on a lot more and that's not counting what will be lost to evaporation.
  2. FPGT72

    FPGT72 Long timer

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    Sorry it is just the way my brain works...it bounces around.....I have trouble staying on one task.

    We had test buses here in KC and I don't remember a huge tank for the LP...it looked like a bus. And granted the cars look like cars....just don't put one on a scale. And having the weight of a toyota camery in just batteries....just what does that do to all things car related....I know for us chargers sucked...so heavy, we went through brakes, and other susp parts like mad.....I would think with an electric car (I will pick on tesla) that has the real weight of two cars that those parts are going to be used up pretty quick.....and the joy of tesla you are not going to O'riley and getting anything for it.....tesla does not think you should do any service on the car yourself.....they seem to follow the business model of everyone from apple to john deere.

    Do you think if a car was designed from the ground up as a _________ it would not have the same advantages.

    And batteries will never EVER get to the point of other fuels like good ole gas, or hydrogen.

    This was a pretty good video:
  3. NikonsAndVStroms

    NikonsAndVStroms Beastly Photographer

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    If you had a truck with the space of an empty bed then it wouldn't be an issue for any fuel, how about compact or mid sized car? What would it do to useable space?

    You lose roughly 1% per day with automotive hydrogen tanks.
  4. NikonsAndVStroms

    NikonsAndVStroms Beastly Photographer

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    I'm going to start with this bit:

    "Do you think if a car was designed from the ground up as a _________ it would not have the same advantages."

    Things aren't always the same for different technologies :deal

    No because it's much harder to make a tank a structural member of the frame than batteries. Both in the strength of them and due to their size per cell a battery pack can be sized into a lot of different shapes.

    With hydrogen you need tanks which are larger and a specific shape making that type of design impractical.

    If you see a NG bus again look at the roof, usually that have a cap on there covering an additional fuel tank. Here's an example from Boston.

    [​IMG]


    Start that video you posted at 6:54 @magnussonh you should watch that bit as well as it highlights the problem. You can't form fit the tanks like with gasoline and they need to be 4x the size for combustion. Fuel cells can help boost efficiency but you still need a larger volume with a tank that's not so easy to place.

    Here's the Honda FCX and you basically need to give up your trunk.

    [​IMG]

    And this isn't even getting into the huge issue of a huge infrastructure/inefficiency of converting water to hydrogen/back again instead of simply using that electricity to drive a car.

    All while battery tech is advancing and there are multiple promising technologies to reduce charge time. To put it simply it already works for many people and has a more promising future in terms of performance advancements. That's why automakers have mostly moved their R&D away from H2.
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  5. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    Not even remotely the same. The batteries don't burn under normal conditions, and diesel fuel is not that flammable. You can literally douse a flaming torch in it.
    Efficiency is the main driver of sustainability.
  6. T.S.Zarathustra

    T.S.Zarathustra Been here awhile

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  7. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    Solar panels are just silicone, glass (i.e. silicone), and aluminum - all ultimately recyclable.
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  8. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    Glass and aluminum are.
  9. NikonsAndVStroms

    NikonsAndVStroms Beastly Photographer

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    That's one driving factor in battery development right now. There's also the benefit that once capacity goes above X range or if you're willing to give some up your car can become a battery backup for your house.

    This could be a huge thing for the grid on renewable energy to help balance the load.

    And the infrastructure for hydrogen would be a huge pain and very, very expensive with large loses due to efficiency at both ends. It's interesting tech and likely will have some niche uses but it's looking unlikely that it'll be mainstream for ground transportation.
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  10. PoundSand

    PoundSand Long timer

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    Uh huh. What's the bigliest selling one so far? :Ear
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  11. thumpism

    thumpism Between bikes

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    Our county uses NG vans in its fleet and they are Chevy/GMC Savana/Express models with a roof cover similar to the one on that bus. Looks like a highroof at first but you can see closeup that it's merely a skirt covering a roof rack assembly mounting a large tank. I'll get a pic.
  12. CodeMonkee

    CodeMonkee Geek Adventurer

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    Volume is a big issue in cars - which make up most of the vehicles on the road. Also, my understanding of hydrogen tanks is that most, if not all, are cylindrical (due to the pressure), so they cannot be made to conform irregular spaces like batteries and liquid fuel tanks can.
  13. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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  14. discochris

    discochris Stayin' Alive

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    Here's something you have to remember about recycling.
    Recycling companies are not doing it for altruistic reasons. They, like every other business, are trying to make money. If it is not cost effective to recycle a material, they will landfill it. I work in an industry where much of our product is packaged in plastic bags. We often get questions about recyclabilty, and the fact is, while our bags are technically recyclable, it's not profitable for recycling companies to do so.

    The same would hold true for solar panels, batteries, and anything else.
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  15. T.S.Zarathustra

    T.S.Zarathustra Been here awhile

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  16. NikonsAndVStroms

    NikonsAndVStroms Beastly Photographer

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    So a pickup missing a good chunk of the bed? That's not going to work out too well....

    Honda are no slouches in engineering and I posted the cut away with the tank they used but here it is again:

    [​IMG]

    Compare that to the Tesla Model Y

    [​IMG]

    The battery pack is just part of the frame, the only thing going into the cabin there is the second motor in the rear.

    Plus you don't want a hydrogen container under people....



    In the rear it is safer than a gas tank but imagine that flame inside the cabin.


    But if you think it's practical answer these few questions:

    1) How will Americans react to losing a lot of cargo space? Giving up essentially their trunk to have a hydrogen tank there. When cars are designed from the ground up for batteries they don't face this.

    2) How would we provide the infrastructure needed to have H2 everywhere? The best high pressure liquid lines don't have much of a loss compared to other methods of transport but now you're talking about a huge network of pipelines across the country, then there would be all the filling stations. That would cost what trillions? It wouldn't be easy for stations to store it either because remember the tanks needed are much, much larger than the equivalent ones for gasoline so basically everything needs to be torn up. Also the amount of electricity needed would be higher due to losses of H2 from storage and the inefficiencies of using X power to first break up water molecules, and then to reform them.

    3) How do you make a market for it? Ramping up EV's is easy since charging stations just need to be connected to the pre-existing grid and that infrastructure has been growing in parallel to our existing gas station network.

    4) What's the advantage? You get less space per vehicle, they are still going to be very expensive with the fuel cells/batteries or require fuel tanks that are much, much larger for hydrogen combustion engines. And while they can "fill up" relatively quickly there are multiple promising battery technologies which can as well and even advancements of the current tech has seen large gains.

    5) Due to all of the above why would you as a country invest trillions for a technology which has essentially 0 market share VS one which has been growing rapidly for the last decade and has already had a lot of advancements in increased performance and cutting costs through that time and is on track to continue that trend?
  17. T.S.Zarathustra

    T.S.Zarathustra Been here awhile

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  18. MikeyT

    MikeyT Krusty Olde Pharte

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    This is the second time I have seen this: glass (i.e. silicone.) Glass is made from silicon, not silicone. Silicon is a major ingredient in silicone, it's true, but they are NOT the same thing. 50 lashes with a wet noodle for you.
  19. Tmaximusv

    Tmaximusv Separated at birth

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    @T.S.Zarathustra suggesting that the bros who love their pickups give ANY of up the bed EVER means you have no real understanding of the breed. Even so, adding a hydrogen tank to the bed completely destroys the purpose of a pickup in the first place.

    That said, I live in part of the world where pickups are USED CONSTANTLY to feed the rest of the world. They are also used to haul very large trailers full of very large and weighty animals, sometimes hundreds of miles to market (at which the producer frequently takes an economic loss). Not one single suggestion posed by any of the alternative energy sources can meet the energy needs of this purpose.

    Likewise, the movement of materials across this very, very large country cannot be done by electric, hydrogen, LP, CNG or solar. Please don’t suggest rail transport. We’ve pulled up thousands of miles of rail because it wasn’t flexible enough to distribute goods. It moves large quantities of bulky items to distribution hubs at moderate speeds, stopping only to change crews. At the hubs the goods are offloaded onto trucks for final delivery.

    Electric semis from Tesla can work in an urban setting, but nowhere else when drivers are paid by the mile and regulated out of the ability to drive those miles as it is. Self driving trucks might be the solution here, but that whole thing scares the daylights out of me as a motorcycle rider.

    Every single European friend of mine is bewildered at the sheer scale of the US. Many who have visited want to see Yellowstone and New York in the same road trip. Never going to happen.

    Alternative fuels and mass transit work for city dwellers. It’s useless in the rest of the country where food is produced.
  20. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    I blame the autosuggest :)
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