Thoughts on Electric Motorcycles?

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by Designer Jake, Feb 2, 2013.

  1. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    So immediately write it off for mass market? Why can't the hub-driven design be improved for mass market?
    What do you think the mass market is looking for?
    more chain maintenance? more chain replacements?
    Have you ridden a Honda Grom in city traffic that plague most large metro traffic?
    Do you know how well a Honda Grom performs in bumper-to-bumper traffic?
  2. Bucho

    Bucho DAMNrider

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    To me this is the biggest perk for electric bikes. Though personally I'm more of an offroad guy, so its even more important.
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  3. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Long timer

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    Just my opinion. I am a potential purchaser but not involved in manufacturing or marketing.

    A pedestrian is faster than city traffic in large metropolitan areas. A Grom would most likely get run over in bumper to bumper traffic, not because of its low power, but because some guy in an F350 wouldn't even notice he was there.

    An electric motorcycle with power equivalent to a 125 cc engine may sell like hotcakes in China, Africa, and other places where small displacement is the current norm. It would probably sell relatively well on college and business campuses and work well in large industrial areas such as ports and airports. Low powered electric motorcycles may sell well with affluent young riders on limited licenses.

    In my opinion, the majority of the potential adult buyers of electric motorcycles in North America and Europe are more interested in something with power comparable to a 300 cc engine or greater. I specify adult because they are more likely than young riders to have the disposable income to afford the premium cost of battery power for the foreseeable future.

    Hub-driven designs can undoubtedly be improved upon but physics do not lie. Even when optimized, it requires a minimum amount of copper to carry the current required to create the magnetic forces required to generate the power that would equal a 300 cc four-stroke internal combustion engine. More power results in a heavier motor. A rear wheel weighing 60-80 pounds is going to be unpleasant and difficult to control at the speeds a 300 cc equivalent electric bike will be capable of. Maybe there will be miracles and hub-driven designs will be the future. I don't see it working out but that's just my opinion at the moment.
  4. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    Doesn't have to be, and won't be as the technology improves.
  5. Grinnin

    Grinnin Forever N00b Supporter

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  6. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    You have to base opinion on mass produced products need some basis, especially from POV of manufacturer that might be manufacturing these vehicles. What are the priorities?

    Are the masses who purchase these electric bikes going to be similar to your need or some other demographic?

    You've brought up comparison for performance of Honda Grom, but never disclose your personal experience with them.
    Have you ever operated an F350 in city traffic pattern? do you see many F350s in city traffic pattern?
    Is there a legitimate concern of F350 running over small scooter type vehicles in city traffic pattern?
  7. MeinMotorrad

    MeinMotorrad Long timer

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    125cc equivalent power is absolutely fine for city traffic:

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  8. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Long timer

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    The Grom was simply an example of an internal combustion two-wheeler with similar power to the hub-motor bike produced by the doctor. My personal experience is that I want one but can't justify the expense. I've owned and ridden many small displacement motorcycles including my first bike, a '69 Kawasaki 90, Honda Trail 90, CT70 & 50, Cub (You meet the nicest people.), Sym Symba, and Vespa LX125. They all work just fine in heavy traffic, neighborhoods, and campuses but start to hold up traffic when the roads open up and speeds increase or going up hills.

    The sales of sub-200 cc motorcycles in North America as a share of the market is very small. Niche vs mass.

    Yup, driven a F350 and Dodge Ram 3500 in city traffic. Looking over the hood is a little like the view from the bridge of an aircraft carrier. Small things disappear. Large pickups are common in large metro areas in the West like Seattle, Houston, or LA as farmers/ranchers come to town and construction contractors head to the jobsite.
  9. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    I see your opinion seem based on limited experience (riding with small displacement bikes) and speculation.

    Sales of small displacement moto may be small in North America, but far greater for the rest of the world.
    Small displacement motos are certainly not niche, but simple demand for manufacturer of electric replacement.

    I have been commuting in NYC metro traffic for the last 2 years, on my bicycle (sans electric assist), 140cc Cub, Ninja 250 are just about perfect.
    Zero incidents with large F350 type that are rarely seen in city traffic. cargo vans, delivery/work trucks are plenty... but not F350s.
    In comparison, I see more bicycles, scooters and small displacement motos than F350s; simply because they suck at mpg in city traffic pattern.
    Over two years of commute between NYC Boroughs and NJ (the most populated area in the nation) zero incident with large vehicles.
    I wonder just how often did you drive a F350 or Ram 3500 in city traffic.. and why on earth would you do that?

    I am working on a hub-driven rear wheel for my downhill MTB, hopefully get regen braking, 400w motor is plenty of juice to get the bicycle moving, rarely have the need to go above 30 mph in city traffic pattern.

    IMO the need for mass produced electric bikes or motos are going to be for city traffic pattern. Priority of reducing emission in densely populated areas, that have access to recharge the bike within 50 miles of riding.

    There will be less demand for electric bikes that perform similar to mid-to-large displacement engines, cruise at 50-60 mph or able to ride 200 miles before refuel or charging.. those would be the niche electric bikes/motos.
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  10. GR0NK

    GR0NK Got some screws loose!

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    WTF is wrong with chain drive all of a sudden? :dunno



    Sean :brow
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  11. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Long timer

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    There are so many disadvantages. If it's O-ring you have the hassle of adjusting it when changing rear tires. Then you have to replace the chain and sprocket every five - eight years. That's a half hour of your life you'll never get back. If you want to make yourself feel better you might need to spray on a dry lube every month or so. Not sure that really does anything with a good sealed chain but it's a habit. Add to that the 1-2% power loss so maybe you lose a mph top speed to friction. That's what's wrong with chain drives. :rofl
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  12. liberpolly

    liberpolly Nu, shoyn, nudnick!

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    Quelle horreur!

    BTW, on electric bikes 5-8 years is the battery lifetime. But it's not likely to get replaced because in the same time period, the technology will advance two generations.
  13. GR0NK

    GR0NK Got some screws loose!

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    Maudibarnac j'y avait pas pensé! :norton

    Yeah I can see how that could get really annoying after a few decades. :photog
    Maybe there will be special EV frustration counseling? :lol2




    Sean :D
  14. Bar None

    Bar None Long timer Supporter

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    Obnoxious sounding motorcycle.
  15. MeinMotorrad

    MeinMotorrad Long timer

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    It must have an aftermarket can on; the original will be very quiet, perhaps too quiet.
  16. Albie

    Albie Kool Aid poisoner

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    Some of us are actually smart enough to not have to live in shitty cities. We just sit back and laugh at the unwashed masses.
  17. Sparrowhawk

    Sparrowhawk Long timer

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    Electric bike racing takes another step forward beginning in 2019.

    upload_2017-12-22_15-27-52.png

    FIM launches the Moto-e World Cup in 2019. The motorcycles will be produced by Italian Energica and based on the current Ego e-sportbike. Initially, there will only be five or six races held in Europe. Up to 18 bikes are planned to make up the grid comprised of satellite teams from Moto3, 2, and GP. The race format is still under development but will likely run 10-12 laps depending on the circuit. DORNA, the owner of Moto GP, is looking to for a partner that would carry a bank of photovoltaic stations to charge the motorcycle batteries.

    http://www.fim-live.com/en/article/energica-fim-moto-e-world-cup-2019/

    http://www.energicamotorusa.com/5487-dorna-picks-energica-single-manufacturer-fim-motoe-world-cup/
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  18. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    Au contraire.

    Many e-bikes carry their packs as part of a rack, or a cylinder mounted on bottle mount lugs, or triangle bag hanging from the top tube, etc. There have already been major advances that don't require a new format, as in the popular 18650 cell, so trading up in tech is painless. If something major happens like going to pouch cells, or even the rumored solid state batteries, the physical mounting should not be an issue. If the nominal cell voltage changes the BMS needs to be different, so it could be more expensive. If I were a BMS manufacturer I would get to work now on making everything I sell adjustable for different cell voltages. It's probably almost a no-cost adder if you design it in properly.
  19. Cat0020

    Cat0020 El cheapo

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    True that, but the product development and market trend is likely to be decided by the masses that inhabit within densely populated metro areas that actually consume the end products.
  20. GR0NK

    GR0NK Got some screws loose!

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    I'm curious this is not something more common. It's not like the technology doesn't exist or is even expensive. Could it be a legal issue?
    IE: 350W on 48 volts but it can run on 72 volts and thus is technically illegal if you operate it at that voltage? :dunno




    Sean :brow