Timing Adjustment - No Tools Needed

Started out checking the TPS according to the hall of wisdom write up. http://advwisdom.hogranch.com/Wisdom/tps3.1.pdf I must add this is a great write up and takes all of about 5-10 minutes tops. I went with the sewing needle method and it proved to work great. I read .35 between both leads so it seems to be adjusted correctly.

I then moved onto Poolsides Hall Sensor Timing adjutments and this also proves to be an easy method to adjust the timing. I was dead on TDC and decided to retard the timing about 3 deg. and it proved to smooth out the rough idle.

I am still having a hiccup type affect about every 15-30 seconds at idle. It's very inconsistent and is not acting like a vacuum leak. I did change over to a Cat-Eliminator and Z-Tecnik Muffler after the rebuild. Could it be that due to less back pressure this is causing a rougher idle or this hiccup?

Hey Poolside, I was going over your timing adjustment for oilhead GS's this week and had a question about the method you used. I understand this was quite some time back but was wondering if you had any thoughts about the process. I changed out the HES assembly on my 95 GS so I would have a spare in case I got stranded on the side of the road. In any case, I was setting the timing by sliding the plate and it seems that the fuel pump will only "trigger" if I am turning the crank counterclockwise and that is backwards from your original post. Do you perceive this to be a problem? I was chasing a "miss" in the bike at idle and since I had the original HES that came in the bike that had "shorted" I repaired it and put it in place of the replacement that was in the bike when I purchased it from the PO some time back; this would give me an "extra" for cheap insurance. I never thought about checking the one that was in the bike when I got it but it seems the bike runs exactly the same regardless of the HES assembly; it still misses but at least it's consistent. Sorry for the long message but I am just seeking a little wisdom and was thinking that this thing not triggering the pump/spark on the natural clockwise rotation of the engine could be some of my issue. Thanks in advance for any input or advice! Let me say that my "miss" may be like some of the previous folks posts about rough idle and maybe not really a misfire; it's very inconsistent.

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>Hey there Woodly.

Yes it was a while ago wasn't it? But going back and thinking about it is anti-Alzheimer's, I hope.

Anyway, just to make sure. By clockwise rotation, do you mean with you positioned in front of the motor, and eyes facing toward the rear of the bike?

If adjusting the timing with this method on the 1100 is the other way round, it will not matter. Just as long as the fuel pump triggers at TDC. It sounds like you're saying it does.
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<table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>Now you got me thinking. Woodly if you still have your bike apart maybe you could try something.

Rotate the crank clockwise through a full rotation and see where the where the fuel pump triggers. Maybe put a TDC chalk mark on the crank pulley to make that easier to see.

The reason I'm asking is that it seems odd that the ECU would trigger the fuel pump with the crank turning in reverse (CCW), but not CW.

Note: As you'll be hand propping the motor around with the ignition on, PULL THE PLUG WIRES!
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Good thoughts,it's kind of weird that as I sit at the front wheel looking towards the back I rotate the engine as in your post clockwise with the OT mark anywhere near the window and nothing...if I rotate the engine a little farther clockwise and then bring it back counterclockwise I will get the trigger of the fuel pump near TDC but I have advanced the thing a few degrees so it fires mid way between the center of the hole and the bottom. Just thought that since it seems to work in the wrong direction of engine rotation I may have an issue. The bike runs none the less. Thanks for your fantastic tutorial! Sure makes it easy to follow along. I will give it a try tomorrow and let you know what it does.

It's great that people keeping their 1100/1150s on the road. I'm glad to support that!

Regarding the quote, try it the other way round. Rotate a little more CCW then bring it back CW. And remember to pull those plug wires using the factory tool.

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Seems strange to me but I thought I would follow poolsides thoughts and roll the engine over in the clockwise rotation as seen from the front of the bike. I made a few marks on the crank pulley and oil line to reference where I was getting signal to power the pulse of the fuel pump. First of all sorry about the photos, crappy cell phone but I think they convey the message. The first picture is of the mark on the oil line lined up with the first set of DOTS on the crank pulley; this is what the flywheel says is TDC or OT on the flywheel. This is the spot where I can't get any pulse from the fuel pump going clockwise but I get a pulse when moving the crank counterclockwise. Picture here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodly1069/6893477659/in/photostream
Next I rotate the engine over clockwise and at about 150 degrees, (I'm guessing here) from the original spot I get a pulse to the fuel pump so I mark that with a single dot. Picture here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodly1069/6893478643/in/photostream
Last I rotate the engine about 180 degrees from the last pulse and I get another pulse from the fuel pump. Picture here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/woodly1069/6893479355/in/photostream
So, knowing all that I am seriously confused! Shouldn't I get the first pulse for fuel and fire at TDC? Then again at 180 degrees after? Seems like I may have the wrong pulley on the thing or something. Good thing is that I do in fact get pulses in the clockwise direction, bad thing is I think they come too late. Does this make sense to anyone?

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>That makes perfect sense. Thanks for taking the time to post up your findings!

I haven't looked into using this 'static timing trick' on the 1100 motor. Here's a description of how the sensors operate on both motors:

The Hall Effect sensors are attached to the motor case behind the crank pulley. One is located at Top Dead Center, the other at Bottom Dead Center. Attached to the backside of the crank pulley there's a metal 'window' that rotates with the pulley. As the pulley rotates, the window passes through the Hall Effect sensors one after the other. You know, first the window passes the TDC sensor, then the BDC sensor, and so on. The window is 45° wide.

As the window passes through a sensor, the output of that sensor changes electrical state. A full crank rotation is of course 360°. During the time when the 45° window passes through a Hall Effect sensor, that sensor output is pulled to ground. During the remaining 315° that sensor output is at a positive voltage. In this case it's close to battery voltage.

When the crank is rotating in the normal direction, the clockwise direction, the window opens for the TDC sensor at 45° Before Top Dead Center. The window stays open for 45° more, then it closes at Top Dead Center. As it happens, the ECU uses the sensor output change that occurs at TDC to trigger the fuel pump.

In this How-to, we're using the fuel pump trigger to determine where the static timing is set. There's a slight procedural difference between the 1100 and 1150 on this point, but the general idea works on both motors. The differences boil down to this: On the 1150, the ECU triggers the fuel pump when the pulley window closes. While on the 1100, the ECU triggers the fuel pump when the window opens.

In practical terms this means that on the 1150 motor, crank the motor clockwise through Top Dead Center to trigger the fuel pump.

And has Woodly1069 has discovered, on the 1100 motor, crank the motor counter-clockwise through Top Dead Center to trigger the fuel pump.
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Poolside, you my friend, are one smart dude, and you're correct! I kept thinking that for some reason this makes sense but for the life of me while out in the garage banging my head I couldn't see it, now I can. You explained it perfectly! Thanks for all your encouragement! Seems as if she is working as designed...now hopefully this will help someone else!

<BR>You're too kind, but I can only take partial credit. You were the one doing the work! Thanks for posting up the question, and for testing out a few things on your bike. That kind of thing definitely helps everyone. Cheers!

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Now that I have had time to think about it, I'm still kind of lost. I get it that the thing fires every 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation but why does it not do anything at TDC? I have to move 135 degrees clockwise from TDC until I get a pulse and THEN it's every 180 degrees.

Utter newb question:
When should I adjust the timing? How would I know I need to?

It isn't mentioned in the GS Service Manual:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...f2-UZIDjAC39P6g-A&sig2=Nn-ivtZezU1URrJrEHpP9Q

(Just picking up a '97 R1100GS with 90k miles which was just serviced by Desmoto in SF. Wondering if I need to do this now, and if not, when?)

I don't think one would necessarily need to adjust anything unless you perceive a problem with the way your bike is running. I was chasing something when I started this and timing seems to be exactly like poolside says; it's just enough adjustment to be fine tuning. It's not going to change the way the bike rides entirely.

<table border="0" cellpadding="5" width="650"><tr><td>I think this might explain the differences.

On both the 1100 and 1150, the Hall Effect sensors are the same. The two sensors are positioned at 0° and 180° relative to the crank rotation. It looks like you get that part alright.

On both the 1100 and 1150, the window on the crank pulley is the same. It is 45° wide, and spans the distance between 315° and 0°.

Said another way, with the crank turning clockwise:
The window opens on the TDC sensor at 315° crankshaft degrees
The window closes on the TDC sensor at 0° crankshaft degrees
The window opens on the BDC sensor at 135° crankshaft degrees
The window closes on the BDC sensor at 180° crankshaft degrees

As the window passes through a sensor:
When the window opens, the output signal changes from high to low.
When the window closes, the output signal changes from low to high.

The 1150 ECU triggers the fuel pump on the low to high transition. At 0° and 180°.
The 1100 ECU triggers the fuel pump on the high to low transition. At 135° and 315°.

Or said another way:
The 1150 ECU triggers the fuel pump as the window closes. At 0° and 180°.
The 1100 ECU triggers the fuel pump as the window opens. At 135° and 315°.


Regarding the question from your quote:
On your 1100, to get the fuel pump to trigger at TDC, the pulley window must change from closed to open at the TDC sensor. And in order to do that, the crank must rotate counter-clockwise through TDC.

The window closes at TDC when the crank turns clockwise. Conversely, it opens at TDC when the crank turns counter-clockwise.

Clockwise works for the 1150, counter-clockwise works from the 1100.

The above based on the reports from your testing. If I had an 1100 handy I could check, but it seems like we can rely just fine on your observations.
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Thank you thank you thank you

"...When should I adjust the timing?..."
Unless you have an 1100,and the HES dies, and you take the HES plate off without marking its position, you will probably never have to do anything with the timing. If your gasoline is so far outside the industry standards, you might have a reason to advance/retard the spark a little. The timing can only be adjusted by about 2 degrees either way, I believe. Therefore it is realllllly hard to mess up the timing when replacing the HES plate.

There can be other reasons besides gas quality. I live at 7400' and ride up in the Rockies, seldom going below a mile above sea level. At higher elevations like this, most engines run better when the timing is advanced a little. Since the air is less dense, the effective compression ratio of the engine is slightly lower, so the timing does not have to be quite as retarded as it would at lower elevations to avoid detonation. Similarly, our gasoline up here has a slightly lower octane rating per grade than that found at lower elevations because we do not need as much detonation protection.

The nice thing about this procedure is that it will allow me to advance the timing a little for the majority of my riding and easily retard it back to stock when riding down in the flat lands to avoid detonation.

Other reasons could be putting in higher compression pistons or changing to a different cam profile or other modifications. But you are right, for the majority of riders and where they ride, there is not much need to alter the stock timing once set properly.

And as a point of comparison…

I have been running my 1150 at full advance since the engine was new. I have backed it down a tad recently just to see what would happen.

The factory adjustment range, or size of the slot on the back plate is fully useable. ASSUMING all of the rest of the engine is in proper running order, (ie valves, ignition, etc).

In other words HAVING to have the timing be at the rated spec is not that critical as long as the rest of the engine is in good shape.

JJ

Interesting you mention this. I knocked mine up to full advance 2 HES plates ago and I've never looked back.

Regular fuel when it's cool out and Premium above 80F. I think it pulls harder than what it did before but I can't be sure.

It never pings at speed, only once in a blue moon from the lights.

Wheelies easier
drcool

I have had my 2000 1150GS for about three years now and just discovered today that the timing was fully advanced after finding this thread. I just set it to zero to see if I can notice any difference, just for fun really.