To all the haters of hanging off the bike.

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by VxZeroKnots, Dec 30, 2011.

  1. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades... Super Supporter

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    With "a few" years on the road as well as some off road, maybe it's the tightness of the corners and some lack of line of sight and that there can be anything from glass beading used to make the lines reflect at night (took out a friend on one dual sport ride, pretty much invisible on the pavement) and whatever other debris may be on the road, but I just can not see riding to the point where having your whole butt off the seat ,much less dragging a knee, isn't possibly using way too much of that $1 on the corner versus self preservation,. I apologize for that serious run on sentence by the way. As I said, maybe it's just the possible perils that show up on the roads in eastern Ohio and much of the rest of the Appalachian area - like a squirrel going to the other side or the random road kill in a blind corner. Even the faster guys I knew in the area didn't do that sort of stuff very often if at all. It's too easy to hit that bit of loose stuff that wouldn't be an issue otherwise.

    Maybe out west the roads stay cleaner. I don't know. I do know only one time have we had a guy throw his bike away and as I said, it was the glass bead build up between the car tracks after centerline painting. I was in the tire tracks, he hit the center of the lane. You couldn't see the bead in the daylight. We ride like we do because we also know we "need to go to work Monday".
    #61
  2. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades... Super Supporter

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    Awe, don't quit! Where's the fun in that!

    After all, it is the ADVrider forum!
    #62
  3. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades... Super Supporter

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    No, I know a fair amount about good body position. You have to learn it when flat tracking. Ever wonder why those flat trackers seem to make good road racers? Ken Roberts, Bubba Shobert, Gary Nixon, Freddie Spencer, Dick Mann, the Hayden brothers, John Kosinski, Wayne Rainey, Eddie Lawson, Doug Chandler...

    I just never seem to have need to do any more than hang a knee out. I've done the hang off route to try it, but it just wasn't ever needed. I guess it's keeping it sane on the road that makes it that way.

    A couple of the guys I ride with have done the Superbike school and they also don't seem to find the need to hang off when riding the road. I'm sure they did when track riding, but not on the road. If I did a track day I'd probably work my way into some serious cornering and needing to hang off. But as long as I still don't get remotely close to running out of tire in corners on the road, I just don't quite see the need.

    Twice now I've been behind and watched riders doing the (?) proper body positioning (?) hanging off. Neither one was remotely fast enough to need to so so. Both were a waste of energy and effort. One was clearly a new rider being followed by her "tutor". I was able to pass them on the next safe straight. Then there was the kid who watched too much road racing. He probably had 3" wide chicken strips on the tire since the bike barely leaned as he hung off. Another waste of energy. I followed him on his 100 hp current sportbike on my 43 hp twenty year old naked bike. Boy could he put motor on me when we hit the straights, but on a clear road with no possible on-coming traffic I could easily have ridden around him in any of the corners as I caught up to him. It was kind of fun though. The antics were entertaining.

    I did actually ride around some sportbike riders back in 90 on a lowly Nighthawk S, a few fellow riders on a GSXR and a ZX7 on some clear line of sight corners. They couldn't believe a Nighthawk S ran that fast, it didn't, they were just that slow on the corners. I also didn't quite have the same self preservation thoughts back then either, but I still didn't need to do any really serious hanging off, just maybe a cheek off the seat in a few cases. I tend to let my body hang in a bit from the waist up in a relatively relaxed way, getting weight in, but not really hanging off.

    Maybe that's why I'm still here to banter and still be riding. Well, that and you can really lean a dual sport hard in a corner without clearance issues.

    Again, I would venture to say if you are really getting your butt off the seat odds are you are either taking way too much risk on a public road, need to evaluate just how much you are leaning since your knee is probably still 3 feet off the roadway, or you are fortunate enough to live in an area with extremely good road maintenance and line of sight in corners. This whole thing reminds me of the "gotta stand up when off road" discussions. It's where you're at and how big a risk you are taking as to whether you need to do certain things or not. Heck I saw a guy hanging off his bike further than any of the road racers on the track at Daytona one year at BikeWeek. He was doing all of about 5 mph trying to negotiate a left hand turn at an intersection, but he was on such a low radical stupid chopper that he had to do so to keep from grounding out the frame! I know it's off topic and all, but gads was it funny to see some of those guys riding those bikes.
    #63
  4. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    Some roads are more conducive to "pushing it" than others. I have ridden Southeastern Ohio. While there are some great roads there, they are not as conducive to riding hard as some of the roads in the Smokies or out west. One of the reasons Deals Gap has become so popular is because it is fairly easy to ride fast on (if you know what you are doing) I would never push it as hard on 555 as I used to on Deals Gap or Palomar Mountain.
    #64
  5. TrashCan

    TrashCan Scary Jerry

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    If I could only ride one road, this would be it...

    http://www.cherohala.com/

    This road has more changes in it than a teenage girl getting ready for a date.

    :clap:clap
    #65
  6. high dangler

    high dangler Been here awhile

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    mark ,a guy learning to "hang off " does look really rediculious ,I agree . .I hate that term "hanging off " BTW . You are NOT hanging.
    Its very awkward for most people .
    I would always try to practice when nobody could see . The track is perfect place but there are so many other things going on ,its brain overload. I had to practice on the public roads .
    All i can say is that it was worth the effort it took to learn .
    #66
  7. Homey

    Homey Been here awhile

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    It all comes down to common sense and riding within yourself. The road conditions are a huge part of the equation. I've ridden my bicycle across Ohio four times but never my motorcycle so you could be right. It doesn't rain as much in SoCal so the roads may be a bit cleaner.

    I actually had an experience with a small furry woodland creature (squirrel) once. I was coming in to a corner full on the brakes when it ran right in front of me. I couldn't do anything except hold my line. I remember thinking I was going to end up on my head (as did the two guys behind me). I t-boned it right behind the shoulders. Pretty much split it right in half. Interestingly it didn't even upset the bike and I just kept on going. The squirrel wasn't much of an obstacle, a deer on the other hand...
    #67
  8. PFFOG

    PFFOG Richard Alps-aholic Supporter

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    My MO too, don't get caught often, but when I do, have I let them by, why should I disrupt another riders rhythm.
    #68
  9. windmill

    windmill Long timer

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    Fixed for reality.

    Ride your own ride.

    Unless someone is going unusually fast or slow, I prefer that they just continue to do their own thing, I'll make my own decisions, and let others ride their own ride.
    #69
  10. TrashCan

    TrashCan Scary Jerry

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    I ride with a group of good riders, and my saying is, only one person can work the throttle...that's me.
    #70
  11. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    It's much easier to be patient when you are one of the slow riders.

    Ultimately it's up to the rider doing the passing to do it safely but what is so hard about being courteous and letting a faster rider by?

    I also feel it is safer to let the rider by than have him back there, getting impatient and possibly trying an unsafe pass.

    Now back to our regularly scheduled programming:

    [​IMG]
    #71
  12. ibafran

    ibafran villagidiot

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    I am sorta amazed that nobody fired on this? Brain overload at the track is a sign that one is riding over one's head and not learning at a rate commensurate with available skill. Granted, there may be some road conditions that are so free of environmental problems and risks that it might be possible to learn to hang off there. But I haven't found any road conditions so good as to be better than what can be found at any RR track.

    Most track books and track riders will say that one of the biggest take-away lessons from the track is that it proves that real speed is impossible on the street. Thus, riders with track experience tend to ride pretty cautiously on the street and see the many dangers of the street for what they really are. All the track junkies that I know are dang near sedate on the street.

    I have no problem with a rider wanting to hang-off at the Gap. But hanging-off and getting a knee down at the Gap pre-supposes that one is riding a line where it is pretty safe to do that. Hanging-off is only one part of the equasion. There are not very many places along the Gap where the sight-lines are long enough and the closing speeds are slow enough that being able to safely change line if needed allows for much speed.

    Of course, I am a devout coward and hate throwing dice when I can do something else. YMMV
    #72
  13. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    [​IMG]

    How about hanging off the car?
    #73
  14. kpt4321

    kpt4321 Long timer

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    The Cherohala is not nearly as good as some other roads in the region. It is a nice, easy "cruise" road, and scenic, but you have to ride a billion miles per hour to get anywhere near the limit because the road is so open and the corners are fairly large radius.

    I'll take one of the much slower much tighter roads over it any day.

    Or, just ride both...
    #74
  15. windmill

    windmill Long timer

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    Fast or slow, it doesn't matter, a rider who lacks self control is dangerous

    Isn't it ironic that squids and road hogs use the same excuses and justifications to define courtesy as all others acquiescing to their singular desire of the moment?

    I ride my own ride, and do not grant or deny permission to others to do the same. If someone can't ride their own ride without the help of others, they're doing it wrong.
    #75
  16. PFFOG

    PFFOG Richard Alps-aholic Supporter

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    letting faster riders/drivers by helps eliminate this frustration and eliminates other vehicles in close proximity, making it safer for all. There is NO reason not to make it easy for them to get by, except for self righteous, me first attitudes. It takes seconds to let someone by, rather than them following for several minutes getting frustrated.

    Guess my parents raised me to be courteous, and friendly. I even open and hold doors for others, guess I should just be more oblivious and think the world revolves around me.

    I am with Klav on this one 100%
    #76
  17. anotherguy

    anotherguy Long timer

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    [​IMG]
    #77
  18. Yossarian™

    Yossarian™ Deputy Cultural Attaché

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    Notice application of rear brake.
    #78
  19. Frostback

    Frostback Frostback

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    Ibrafran is astute in saying
    The notion of having one's attention completely focussed on going fast is nice but a luxury street and road riders almost never are afforded.

    Just last month I finished reading Bodies in Motion by Steven Thompson wherein he contends that the inordinate pleasure we motorcyclists get out of motorcycles relates to G-forces of cornering, accelerating, shifting, and braking on an inherently unstable platform that we make stable with speed, centrifugal force, leaning and body position. His basic contention is that we are evolutionarily programmed to handle these stimuli. (If you choose to disavow evolution or can't brook discussion requiring its acceptance as a precept that is OK with me but this might be a good place to abandon this message). I buy about 90% of his argument and agree that the sensation of cornering is the best of the best in motorcycling. He contends it is related to a similar love of G-force found in tree climbing, rock scaling, and all the mental calculations involved in physics of being sensorily and situationally aware.

    So, if he is right, I would think that hanging off would be something of a distraction from the purity of experiencing controlled G-forces. Alternatively, if I was getting my knee down as a curb feeler and effectively gathering data on angle, surface and relationship of tires and tackiness of asphalt, the calculations change from two contact patches to a tripod and that could have huge brain calculation advantages. I never have and don't ever plan to do that. I typically take my chicken strips down no less than 1-2 mm on my 12GS with Metzlers and that is with my butt firmly in the saddle which is satisfying and plenty enough for me. I do love the satisfaction of edge-walking the traction game but like being in a position to quickly and instinctively recover.

    My riding though is for broad satisfaction, control and precision, not time, not competition, not bragging rights, not posing, not money, not even that delicious dose of near-panic adrenaline. Were I a younger man on a track I suspect I would go squidly and try it. Probably not in the cards for me now though.

    Lee
    #79
  20. windmill

    windmill Long timer

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    A rider is either capable of riding their own ride, or they are not. There is no need to "let" someone make a safe pass, it's either safe for them to do so or it isn't. Courtesy has nothing to do with it.

    Go to any Cruiser forum, you will see your same argument and accusations being used to justify being a road hog. It's sad that egocentric people who feel entitled to special privileges are incapable of sharing the road on equal terms.

    Sometimes you get to take, sometimes you have to give, that's just the way it is.
    If your having enough trouble with others fast or slow to find riding frustrating, your just failing to see who is the real problem. If your not having that much trouble with others but can't cope with it when you do, then you have real issues.

    Fortunately the asinine opinions of a few on this forum and others rarely carry over to the real world where I live, and I have virtually no problems with either group of "special" riders.

    Opinions and actions are 2 different things.
    #80