Total Control Training is Pennsylvania's new official state program manager

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by OfirMX, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. FJRSPORT

    FJRSPORT 2WheelTraveler

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    Several of us. I’ve personally been with PAMSP for over a decade; and a number of those in management.
  2. FJRSPORT

    FJRSPORT 2WheelTraveler

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    Sadly you are correct; however, TCTI’s BRC has a considerable amount of ARC DNA coursing through its curriculum. One could argue that advanced training indirectly reduces fatalities as can be proven in the CA’s most recent research.

    There is also the history of advanced motorcycle training for Marines. Might want to check out their fatality stats.
  3. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    Then this alludes back to an original question..the last time Pa. did an ‘effectiveness’ study was in 2009..

    http://www.dot7.state.pa.us/BPR_PDF...tions/MotorcycleSafety-Task4-Final Report.pdf

    ..when will the next one be completed?
  4. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Someone Told you that and you believed it, Can you show the documentation that shows that? Can you show the research? And when the drop in fatalities occurred can you show it was tied to the training provided, or was it a reflection in the drop in the number of riders? Lets see the study and the report.


    TCTI's BRC is the Idaho Star Program, Nothing more. Do your research. maybe go take an Idaho BRT and see for yourself. Try not believing everything you are told and actually do your own research. I work with a Guy who tells me the Earth is Flat, guess I should believe him...
  5. Navy Chief

    Navy Chief Long timer Supporter

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    So I am assuming that you have done both courses to compare them. Or are you making assumptions based on third party information?
  6. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    ...then the States bidding process should be very familiar if you where working with...

    DAVID SURGENOR EXITS MSF
    Quiet Retirement Planned
    Return To Table Of Contents | Return To Magazine Archive
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    [​IMG]After spending nearly 30 years helping others learn to ride motorcycles and improve their skills, David Surgenor has retired from the Motorcycle Safety Foundation.

    With a degree in elementary and early childhood education, Surgenor was a natural. Following advice from a friend who was an MSF instructor, he “fell in love with training new and experienced riders sharing the joy of motorcycling.”

    “Working for the Pennsylvania (training) program became my life,” he said.

    Under his guidance, the Pennsylvania training program grew from 40 training sites serving 12,000 students to 72 sites training 29,000.

    “I felt a personal responsibility to see that everyone who wanted training not only had a location to go to, but that they were getting the high standards of training built into the MSF curriculum,” he said.

    Surgenor became a Motorcycle Safety Foundation instructor for the Pennsylvania Motorcycle Safety Program in 1989 and earned chief instructor certification in 1994. He joined the MSF national staff in 1999 and became state coordinator of the Pennsylvania Motorcycle Safety Program. In 2014, Surgenor was promoted to National Manager of MSF Training Systems. In 2015, he was promoted to National Director of Quality and Outcomes.

    Surgenor has owned more than 40 motorcycles, from dirt bikes to tourers. He recently sold his Harley-Davidson Road King and believes he is finished with long-distance rides.

    “My next bike is undetermined right now,” he said. “The choices of styles nowadays are incredible. Lightweight and retro style has my eye.”

    As for retirement, Surgenor has “no big plans.” He is caring for his aging mother.

    “She was always there for me, and I believe it’s my turn now,” he said.
  7. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Souped-Up Weasel

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    In Florida it depends on the school and the owner. Some owners are happy to fuck their instructors out of every penny they can. At our school the boss will pay us both to teach the first day, then let us decide who wants to come back to teach solo the next day.
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  8. FJRSPORT

    FJRSPORT 2WheelTraveler

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    Good question, That is predicated on PennDOT's time frame. Curriculum takes 3-5 years to work-out most of the bugs. I would assume PennDOT will complete their study in the next couple of years.
  9. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    My question was regards the linked article. As the poster appeared to be implying that someone either from CALDOT or Total Control relocated to PA, and then the contract was steered toward Total Control..
  10. FJRSPORT

    FJRSPORT 2WheelTraveler

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    Showed me what exactly? As stated, there is no research to prove the ARC reduces fatalities; however, the Marines seem to think it does as they continue to renew contracts for advanced training for their soldiers. The BRC, while drawing from the the open sourced Idaho Star curriculum, is influenced by TCTI's ARC.


    Yes, I am aware, and have reviewed the STAR curriculum (though I have not taken it yet). I work with Lee Parks and the curriculum developers directly. I am one of the researchers for PAMSP, served over a decade in public education as a Special Education teacher in an Alternative Urban setting (high school ES). I've earned my Masters in Special Education, as well as an Airframe and Powerplant certification (A&P), single engine high performance/complex VFR certification, and advanced open water scuba cert (PADI). I am at the dissertation phase of my EdD in Educational Leadership, and have my hands directly in the PAMSP contract on a daily basis. I have been a PAMSP instructor over a decade (MSF & TCTI) and have worked with all four of our program managers here in PA...including the venerable Dave Surgenor (They are all exceptional leaders!) ...and I ride on average 25,000 miles a year. I respect and value education. Do I have all the facts? No. I, like you, am human. However, I do believe my experience, education, and background afford me some credibility. I believe the overarching ideas of PAMSP are honorable and believe motorcycle education is a means of reducing fatalities; and I believe the motorcycle safety industry is beneficial for people wanting to sharpen their skills and stay safe(r) on the road. As a curriculum developer I find pros and cons with both MSF and TCTI. I also understand the tension that exists between the two organizations. We can pick apart anything that rubs us the wrong way; however, that form of legalism is like the proverbial rabbit hole. To avoid falling in, my focus remains on what work's and making it work better. I appreciate the criticism and questions each of you have shared; in some respects, I agree with you. But dwelling on what is wrong with a system without offering viable solutions serves little to no constructive purpose; and I have chosen to be part of the solution. PAMSP has an open door policy for instructors, and TCTI is inviting all who share a love for riding and sharing their experiences with others here in PA to join us in our efforts to reduce motorcycle related fatalities.

    If you are interested in joining our team please email a summary of your riding experience to me at: c-rispring@pa.gov.


    Again, thank you for the lively discussions. :)

    Rick
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  11. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    http://diamondposse.com/Team_files/bobbie.html



    PaMSP, MSF, Cape Fox, Total Control, inc.
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  12. FJRSPORT

    FJRSPORT 2WheelTraveler

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    Bobbie is originally from PA, relocated to CA in 2013-ish. Awesome lady! Very knowledgeable and fun to work with. Has a huge heart for PAMSP.
  13. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    Nothing like:

    Ron Shepard, Idaho (RIP) vs. MSF over curriculum copy rights

    ..or..

    David Hugh, Motorcycle Safety author-American Motorcyclist Association Hall of Fame vs. Ray Ochs@MSF
  14. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    I am unfamiliar with these 'cases', any links or short descriptions without hi-jacking the thread further?
  15. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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  16. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    Interesting...

    Well from my own research into riding and safety; I have found a study that relates
    "skill" training and effectiveness to "risk" awareness training.
    The big rake away for me is that the effectiveness of 'skill' training diminishes about 6 months post training to being as effective as no training at all;
    whereas teaching risk awareness has a much longer effect on riders not being involved in crashes.

    I'll relate this to the emergency braking question; there are probably many things that rider could be doing to minimize the need
    for emergency braking BEFORE he has the need to use that skill.
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  17. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    I have been and Instructor and trainer and much more. Feel free to P.M. me.
  18. Navy Chief

    Navy Chief Long timer Supporter

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    No reason to, just wondering what you were basing you statement on.

    In reality I don't care what the curriculum is based on so long as it is effective. The branding of the training means nothing when the rubber meets the road, only the results.
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  19. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Do not rely on what is "presented" to you statistics can be made to show anything you want. Look at all the facts. For best results do not believe any of what you hear and only half of what you see.
  20. FJRSPORT

    FJRSPORT 2WheelTraveler

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    Yes, but...data can help shape our decisions for the better. There are tools to validate and make credible. If data is credible, why not use it to be informed?