Total Control Training is Pennsylvania's new official state program manager

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by OfirMX, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    Then perhaps you can post some information from your physics expert friends explaining the physics of how motorcycles turn. Or from any physics experts. Anyone but a cartoonist.

    Feel free to include free-body diagrams.
    Luckycharms likes this.
  2. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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  3. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    It’s (partially) touched on in Lee Parks ‘Total Control’ book see Chapter 13..but this is the Total Control ARC1 and 2
  4. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    And that Makes it true?
  5. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    I think VX rider has it covered. Maybe you should look at the accuracy of the content, those "Cartoons" are correct, what you are teaching is NOT.
  6. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    ..must be ‘it’s on the internet’..and Pa. & Ca. bought it(Contract).. :)
  7. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    LMAO I gotcha, it must be true, they bought it! Personally I did my homework, built the models and tried out the concepts for real, guess what? Cone shape does not make it turn just like the Cartoons show... Go figure, a cartoonist knows more than a state program...
  8. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    Some will have bad memories with this as it stirred up the major forces in m/c safety program development...


    782C8D84-6CD3-402D-A9B4-0AFF71104034.jpeg 185F108C-EED7-4ADA-B8BC-088688CC257B.jpeg 044E406A-5B67-449C-9E60-178898C6BF09.jpeg 472B867F-9746-41AB-81C3-DF85DBAD7A1A.jpeg 302C06D0-F3E3-4492-9C36-E190E036696B.jpeg

    ...remember attending a certain Owners Association rally where Mr. Hough and (Dr.) Ray Oachs, MSF both had seminars..and one could almost cut the air with a knife from the visable disdain as they gleared at one another...

    Bottom line folks..’Egos’ where at play here as their (professional) reputations where at stake.. To tread lightly here..there is similarity with ‘this’ thread as well...just have a thick skin and :) a lot..
  9. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    Actually, that is only a free body diagram of the forces that are keeping the motorcycle from either falling over, or flipping outward due to centrifugal force. It does not actually explain the physics of how the bike turns through an arc.

    BTW, where have I claimed to be teaching anything regarding the physics of a turning motorcycle? I have only asked for you to defend your contention with something other than a cartoonist's take on it. You keep claiming that the PA course is wrong, but have yet to posit what the correct physics explanation of a turning motorcycle is. So if TCT is wrong, please explain the correct physics.
    Luckycharms likes this.
  10. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Maybe you missed it, Do you teach TCTI? Maybe take a moment and build the actual models used in the "Cartoon" and you will soon see that the cone does not work.

    I did as described below, only difference I went to a hobby store and bought wooden cones and dowel rods to make it easier. Same result. Facts don't lie, motorcycles do not turn based on the shape of the tire.

    I build a model bicycle with cones in place of wheels. For the cones I use two cottage cheese containers filled with sand to give them weight for traction. I drill holes in the centers of each to insert an axle. When I roll one on its side it travels in a circle. It turns. Not terribly exciting to you and me, but a dream come true for a cone.

    I nail together a frame of scrap wood with two side rails and a wood block in the middle. The axels are nails through holes in the side rails 8 inches apart front to back. It’s not perfect, but it’s as square and the axels are as parallel as I can manage with the tools, materials and skills I have. I end up with a squat, little, and kinda silly looking, two-wheeled, or two-coned bicycle that tilts to one side without falling over.

    [​IMG]
    I give the little contraption a push and it rolls quite well travelling about 8 feet… in a straight line. I push it back the other way. Same thing, no turning. I take the wheel/cones off and flip them around in various configurations. I try rolling it while pushing down on the center block for more traction. But the result is always the same: straight line, no turn.

    The cone turning effect fails utterly.
  11. jerictownsend

    jerictownsend Adventurer

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    I learned to ride by taking a MSF class in Texas in the early 90s.

    Going through the TCT training to teach for PAMSP I unlearned/relearned many riding skills. I'm even a better driver of my 4WD Terrain Fucker after TCT instructor training. I no longer look in to the turn, I look at the turn exit and use peripheral vision to watch for changes in road conditions. This is now obvious for motorbikes but really helps how I drive my 4WD in a thunderstorm.

    My biggest surprise is that we no longer argue about whether or not counter-steering is "real". This was a big argument back in 1990 and I'm glad it has been finally put to rest.
  12. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Not sure who you argued with, but I have been riding since the 70's and that was never been in question or argued about since I have been riding and has always been taught in the MSF classes. My first formal training was with the MSF program in 1984 in Colorado.

    I bet they also taught you a motorcycle turns because the tire has a round profile and tuns like a wheelbarrow... LMAO I spent most young life pushing wheelbarrows, the shape of the tire and lean mean nothing to a wheelbarrow, they need to lean when moving at speed just like a bike to prevent tipping over, but round tire or flay hard tire like the garden type makes no difference to the turning.
  13. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    Interesting concept...Noticed on the PaMSP list of training sites that there is a PaMSP training location in Youngstown, Ohio.. Is Pa. now offering Total Control in Ohio..or is it the other way around via ‘Remote sites’..?

    http://www.pamsp.com/mapping/
  14. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Souped-Up Weasel

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    Hey are those readable on the net somewhere?
  15. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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  16. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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  17. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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  18. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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  19. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    And tell me what this has to do with anything? I read it all when it was written and since as well. Are you trying to say the current provider is not in it for the 31 million dollars? If the "New" are better, maybe do it for cost...
  20. aa3jy

    aa3jy Been here awhile

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    If this is true than I fear there will be no distinguishing between Ohio and Pa signups as Pa students should have priority as it is a Pa. contracted program..