Total Control Training is Pennsylvania's new official state program manager

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by OfirMX, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    MSF did update it's curricula but not all states have changed to the new program. Several states do their own thing now. Oregon, Idaho, North Dakota, Ohio do their own programs and of Course California and Now PA are doing Total Control (Which is actually the Idaho Star Program packaged under the Total Control name since it was available and was open source materials.
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  2. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    And those years are related to what?
    Change in provider, or the reason for the changem
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  3. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    The Provider changes Jan 1 2015. the numbers for 2015 had a 5% decrease in fatalities, 2016 also under the new Provider had 10% increase in fatalities with fewer riders trained. Visit the NHTSA web site and you can look at the numbers for any state dating back the last 10 years.
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  4. OfirMX

    OfirMX Sierras' Gatekeeper

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    Yes, ARC classes will also be available and free of charge for PA residents.
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  5. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    Well I guess we wait for the 2017 nubers to see if that trend reverses.

    Or if it proves what some studies show, that rider training is not effective. Whereas RISK training has proven more effextive.

    Something to do with giving g riders false confidence, while RISK awareness raises the riders conciousness of those risks then safety goes up.
    #25
  6. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    This trend may be due to increased miles ridden/number of riders with the economy improving since 2009. The total of US traffic fatalities, as well as the per capita rate of US traffic fatalities, has risen the past two years.
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  7. OfirMX

    OfirMX Sierras' Gatekeeper

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    You are correct. According to the latest Statewide Integrated Traffic Records System (SWITRS) the number of motorcycle fatalities in California increased in 2016 from 504 to 550 (+9.1%), hovever the number of registered motorcycles on the road increased even more, from 828,883 to 907,037 (+9.4%) so the trend on motorcycle fatalities is still going down compared to the total number of motorcycles on the road.

    In fact, the number of non-motorcycle (car, trucks, etc.) fatalities increased even more! (+9.7%).

    Running a state-wide traning program in a place like California is no small feat, especially when there are so many non-educated riders already out there on the road and so many other factors that we cannot control. But we are confident that training new riders and doing our best to promote education among already-riders can have a lasting --and life saving-- effect, one step at a time.

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  8. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    I agree that running a state wide program is difficult and I also agree that training is critical if we want to make a change and a difference. But there is way more to it than just training. Providing an easy to get into, easy to complete program entices people to learn to ride and ride that might not otherwise ever consider getting on a motorcycle so we are also inflating the number of riders on the road and possibly putting riders on the road who should not be on the road. Some of these people might not have anything beyond what they learned in the class, awareness or ability to make the good judgements that riding a motorcycle require. This becomes even more critical since judgement plays a major role in being able to safely survive the ride. And what is the cost to the state, (Taxpayers) and riders. In the case of PA training is free for everyone but the Taxpayers foot the bill for 31 million dollars. And being free there are people who end up on the road with a license who might otherwise never get off the couch. Are those the people you want on the road with you? I know one instance where a person failed the class four times in PA and passed it the fifth time. Hey its free why not keep trying? The class and testing are pretty easy to start with.

    New York has a program that is not free and it is also not mandatory to take training but over 70% of those getting a license take the class to do so. And New York fatalities dropped by a large percentage again this year. The drop from 2015 to 2016 was 18%. This is also the lowest level of fatalities in the last 10 years. Yes Fatality numbers are no the only thing we need to look at, I already agreed to that. But we keep right on teaching a two day license waiver class and making it easy for people to get on the road, hence increasing the number of riders on the road. It is harder in many states to get a car license than it is a motorcycle license.

    The Definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. If we want to make real change, lasting change it is time we started doing some new and different things instead of the same things we have done since the 70's. Do you agree?
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  9. OfirMX

    OfirMX Sierras' Gatekeeper

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    There is possibly such people but, personally, I don’t think they represent a significant sample of new riders. I don’t think many people get into motorcycling just because of a free course -- just like I wouldn’t get into patisserie just because courses in my local community are free. And if they do take the course and end up falling in love with motorcycles, good for them! They still need to purchase a bike, gear and make other significant expenses.

    On the other hand, I personally know people who already ride or want to start riding and don’t believe they need to pay to be taught things they THINK they already know or things their buddy can teach them. But I’m sure most of them would give it a try if only the course was free to them.

    I also know several riders who would really like to get intermediate and/or advanced courses but --they say-- they cannot afford them, especially because these courses are sometimes not taught in their own towns and they would have to travel to take them.


    So, I don’t know, I will leave politics to the politicians but, for the time being --as an instructor and avid rider-- I really like the idea of free quality motorcycle training for all those who are interested in it.



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  10. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore "You ain't black!"

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    We tried free training with a grant from the state. It didn't work. Or, it worked, but we never saw the demographics that crash motorcycles. No young guys on sportbikes, and very few bar-to-bar cruiser types. The only people who showed up were cautious, safe, middle-aged riders. You know, BMW guys.
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  11. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    PA rider training has been free for attendees for as long as I can remember. It is financed from motorcycle license fees.
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  12. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Not sure how a bakery equates to a hobby like riding a motorcycle, sky diving or water skiing?

    Like you I also know people like who do not think they need training either to get started or even to improve and even free classes is not going to change their opinion, just a fact of life. Not everyone is like you and I. As long as you are talking about that what about the riders who take the course and then think they know everything and go out and crash, that is a real problem that has been studied and proven with all levels of training. I am NOT advocating to stop training just want to point out there is a lot more than you might realize. After 23 years in the business I have seen a lot from all perspectives and also know that a lot of the people "Behind the scenes or the push" are not really concerned about the riders we are training, and only use this as a means to sell motorcycles or make money lining their own pockets while those of us on the front lines are their means to accomplish this goal.

    We all know people who claim they would take training if it was cheap or free, but the fact that they pay thousands for or even tens of thousands for a bike but are not willing to pay for a class should be an indicator that for the majority that is an excuse so you are talking about a very few who that actually applies to.

    Here is something for you to also consider from an insurance journal review:

    An institute analysis of state-required training programs for riders under 21 in California, Florida, Idaho and Oregon found graduates’ collision claim frequency was 10 percent higher compared with 28 states without those requirements.

    “Although this difference isn’t statistically significant, it contradicts the notion that motorcycle training courses reduce crashes,” the affiliated Insurance Institute for Highway Safety said.


    It is important that we look and consider all the information and facts, not just those that make us feel good or line our pockets. Like most of the instructors I know (Including you) we are not in this business for the money and as such we really need to take a hard look at if we are actually helping or possible making things worse and killing people. This is a subject no one wants to really talk about.
    #32
  13. CopaMundial

    CopaMundial Wow, that broke easy

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    Just a guess like most, but I would say PA accident and death rates suffer a lot less from any issues created by cheap/free training than from other factors... namely no easily enforced helmet law (which I wouldn’t want, but I accept the fact that not having one allows people to rightly claim their Darwin awards at a rate more representative of their worthiness) and the fact that you can ride in PA pretty much indefinitely without any training or license simply by endlessly renewing your learners permit.
    #33
  14. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    We know that helmets do make a difference, but that would change the average, not the steady climb since the helmet law does not change year to year. Also most states do not require training, in fact states that do require training have the same climb in fatalities and maybe more. Not yet determined but the last 40+ years do show us something.

    Rider training in the form of basic learn to ride classes have been around since the 70's and what have we learned from that? What we teach and how we teach it have changed over the years and despite these changes in over 40 years we cannot show any positive impact we have had on changing the fatality rate or rate of injury to riders. What do we know? Well we know that when rider training was first introduced it was not used to earn a license. We know that when states started using the program to pass out license waivers to avoid the DMV testing the number of people who took the training went up and so did fatalities. We know there is a correlation there and people have made that point very clear. Fatalities continued to climb despite technology that should be helping to reduce fatalities. Some say well more miles ridden, that is true, but better technology and safer roadways should be offsetting that, yet fatalities continue to climb. So lets look at what we do know. Not all states offer the same basic level training program, despite this, even in those states fatalities continue to follow the same trend so it does not appear that what we teach at the introduction level matters.

    The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

    I want to make a difference, and I like most in the business believe we can. That is why we got into the business, but I honestly do not think it is tied to who is writing the courses or what we are teaching in them. That is nothing more than a money grab or a way to sell motorcycles. What we need to do is change the mentality of the riders and in order to do that we have to be able to reach them. So how do we reach the riders and start to reach them in a way that will have an impact on how they think about riding and what they do on a bike? We cannot change the mentality of the riders if we do not change the mentality of those teaching. We need instructors like Dan and Ofir who honestly believe in training as a way to improve and always want to learn to be the best they can be. We do not need Instructors who take all training as a merit badge to show how great they are. Instructors have to live what they preach, we have to be the example, we cannot expect those we teach and those we associate with to change if we are not the example for them. How seriously do you think the message of riding gear is when those teaching and professing go out and have an excuse for not wearing it.

    People watch what you do way more than what you say. So many (Not the majority) of the instructors want to make a difference and they have been led to believe that the training they are providing is doing that when in reality it is not making a difference. It may actually be helping to increase fatality numbers since people are hitting the street that might otherwise never get on a bike and also with an inflated opinion of their skills since they have "Completed a class and know what they need to know". If we do not help them to change how they think about everything from riding gear to rider training we have lost. We have to not only teach, but live what we are teaching. How can instructors who have never taken advanced level training or experienced other training convince students and friends how or why it is important? How can riders who don't wear a helmet or just a half helmet and t-shirt convince others why gear is important.

    At the end of the day those in the business of providing training, providing services for training, or teaching have to face the facts and start to steer the ship in a new direction. We know just changing the training provider or how we are teaching them to use a clutch and brakes is not working. Letting everyone know that this is a 31 million dollar contract and the biggest dollar amount in the nation is not what is important. The RIDERS are what matters, until those at the top understand this nothing will change.
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  15. Snowbird

    Snowbird Cereal Killer

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    Understood. Q: Are you somehow involved with Total Control Training? I'm not suggesting a bias or conflict, just wondering how close to the source you are.

    Second Q: Do you know the areas of differences between the training methods or at least the main points of TCC? Briefly..?
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  16. Snowbird

    Snowbird Cereal Killer

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    If I was trying to suss out the reason, the first thing I'd look at is not the miles ridden, but rather the miles driven. Highways are occupied by far more cars with drivers who are far less capable and far less involved with far less to lose due to their own safety equipment. I'm not saying this is the only reason, but if the rate for motorcyclists per mile or even in the aggregate has worsened, that is the first thing I'd try to discern from the evidence.

    Side note: I was looking at the state of Florida population by year yesterday, finding about 5 million in the state in 1960, 7 million in 1970 when I first began going to the state to ride during the winter, and over 20 million today. My advice to motorcyclists as a result of witnessing this increase in population and resulting traffic is simple: stay away from cars as much as possible.
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  17. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Good Suggestion, But 51% of motorcycle accidents are Motorcycle only, no one else involved. Of the 49% that involve another vehicle some of those are other bikes. And of those 49% just because another vehicle was involved does not mean it was the other vehicles fault. there is a huge amount of data out there and we look at a lot of things. Right now it is training that is drawing the attention and is it working or making things worse.
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  18. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    They don't focus enough on the RISK of motorcycling.

    There are a couple 9f studies that show that RISK education has more staying power than operational training.

    Yes it's probably easier to teach friction zone...swerving, etc.
    However showing the risks, and risk management is harder, and might even dissuade some from riding, but if the crash rates went down wouldn't be worth it?
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  19. Snowbird

    Snowbird Cereal Killer

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    Thank you and I understand and agree. There may also be a small slice of accidents where cars violate motorcyclists' right of way, causing a crash, and keep on going.
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  20. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    about 19% of crashes involve a vehicle turning across the path of the rider, And while the majority of those are the left turners fault, not all are. I had one across my desk the other day where the driver would have had plenty of time to make the left turn, had no idea the motorcycle was traveling at a high rate of speed. I would love to see more education during auto training about motorcycles as well.
    #40
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