Total Control Training is Pennsylvania's new official state program manager

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by OfirMX, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. Snowbird

    Snowbird Cereal Killer

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    You betcha. Slow down through intersections and/or as you approach move to the side of your lane away from the car looking at you. Doing that gives better perspective of your approach speed as the other driver sees down the side of your bike. I do that regardless of which side the threat is... if from both, that's an occasion when I may choose to slow down.
    #41
  2. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    Credit where credit's due- Idaho STAR's program started as TEAM Oregon's, but outlaws justice knew that. Stacy Axmaker came from Oregon (co-developer on the BRT), went to Idaho, and now consults for Lee Parks. I think a former TEAM Oregon instructor trainer is behind the scenes in North Dakota. All credit for all of it goes to Steve Garets, who was the first to split Oregon from MSF in 2002 (and got sued by MSF along the way). Under the settlement agreement Oregon was forbidden to promote or provide the program outside the state, but Idaho already had the materials; otherwise, none of this would probably be possible.

    Oregon also employees an independently developed "eRider" program (TEAM Oregon being forbid, per the lawsuit, to deliver course materials electronically on our own) that is accepted by the state to replace classroom training; it's not catching on as well as staff had hoped; not sure why. Oregon's classroom gets a major overhaul sometime mid-2018, and then another pass through range curricula (we're on our third iteration since 2004) shortly after.

    Curious to hear where Missouri is, given the current head of the program there (Ray Pierce, another co-developer of the BRT) also came from Oregon; he went into the job pretty adamant that he wasn't going to blindly switch to the newer BRC without considering other options, including doing a new program from scratch.

    As for training being effective, or not- I agree that it takes a culture change, not (just) training. Until riders (as a whole) come to grips with the fact that it's us (riders), not them (car drivers), the problem won't improve much.
    #42
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  3. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    You are correct, while the basis for the program is the same it did start in Oregon, then with some modifications over the years is the Idaho Star program. Sorry I did not go as in-depth into all the details. There have also been studies done, one by Illinois comparing the Idaho Star and the BRC. And of course many other things along the way.

    As for Missouri we are still using the Original BRC and where we go now is still up in the air, but there will not be a change until all available options have been fully looked into and checked out. As part of that I have attended an R-Rets and also taken the Update. You cannot make a good value judgement without doing your homework!

    Making that Culture change will be the hard part and the part we all have to work on together is we want to see it actually happen.
    #43
  4. jonz

    jonz Miles are my mantra Supporter

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    Has anyone made the correlation between increased fatalities and increased training? I haven't seen that mentioned other than the fact both occurred. Just because numbers trained has increased doesn't mean that caused an increase in fatalities. In fact, if miles ridden increased more rapidly than fatalities, the mileage death rate (which is a better measure of how unsafe/safe riding may be) could have gone down while fatalities increased. The fact (as someone else pointed out) that motorcycle registrations increased in the same time period being discussed hints that may be a possibility. For me, a statistic that would be most informative (if available) would be a mileage accident/death rate comparison between new riders that received training vs new riders that had no training. Is such a statistic available?
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  5. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    From other discussions about training, the research i found and read pointed to RISK education to have more and lasting impact on rider behaviors.

    I'm saying this again because it bears repeating.

    Now the trick would be how do.you actually show them risky behaviors without killing them? And how do you show them risks, and still make it clear that there are some risks that aren't easy to show?

    If I can I'll post a list later....and we'll see where that goes.

    Riding a motorcyle is easy enough to teach..but how do you impart the knowledge of and mitigation of the risks involved? I know class and range time are limited.
    #45
  6. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    There are also other factors that should have made the rate drop, better bikes, with better systems, tires etc. Better road designs and better education. We know that those are all true yet the fatalities continue to rise despite that, and we know that we are training more riders. Just the 6 big states, Texas, Florida, New York, PA, California and Ohio together train over 200,000 new riders each year. That is a lot of bike sales.
    #46
  7. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    All those factors likewise apply to automobiles, yet automobile fatalities have also risen. It's not just a motorcycle thing.
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  8. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    I believe there is research showing if you provide means to reduce a person's perceived risk (make them drove a vehicle with ABS, lane assist, braking assist for example), they will change behaviour in ways that will increase risk again (text while driving, for example) until the perceived risk is back where they started.

    Elon Musk would have us all in self driving cars. I wonder if he has ever engaged in a physical activity that rewards increased competence... Winning at sports maybe, or motorcycling.
    #48
  9. Johnny X

    Johnny X Giant Monkey

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    It was MSF for a long long time. Then in 2014 Cape Fox got the contract and .. honestly not much changed. We still teach/taught the standard MSF curriculum same as always. IIRC there was a season where we used the old books/classroom instead of the new stuff on some sites. Basically just to use up the old textbooks before we switched. Now they are going to change our curriculum again. I'm honestly curious how. If they change the classroom again that will be 3 times in 3-4 years. A lot of the "Rider Coaches"? "Instructors"? "Whatever we are nows" won't be crazy about that but hey, we'll learn it and life goes on. I am genuinely curious as to whether or not the range exercises will change and how/when they will teach that new program to all of us.
    #49
  10. Johnny X

    Johnny X Giant Monkey

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    Hey Dave, that's not true. Seriously! The PAMSP is paid for by a portion of the fee riders pay for their MC license or permit. No tax money funds the program.

    Here is a link from the DMV stating the same:

    http://www.dmv.pa.gov/Pages/FAQ Pages/PAMSP-FAQ.aspx#Q2

    It's taught by PA riders, for PA riders and paid for by PA riders.

    Now this part..

    Is true but open to interpretation. If someone takes a class 4-5 times (and I haven't seen that personally but I have seen a guy take it 3 times) they are pretty committed. They are also getting the best assistance they can to ride safely. If they take the class 5 times would they find a way to get their license some other way if they had to pay for the class? IMO likely. At least in PA they see an instructor who does his/her best to teach them as much as possible each time. I like that and I think it's a step in the right direction!

    Also, the guy who took it three times.. I see him often enough. He lives in the same town as me. He knows he has a long way to go to get his skills up and he is working on it. He bugs me at the supermarket and asks for tips to train himself. I'm glad he does. A guy like that was going to get on two wheels one way or the other. Better he has a path to get good advice.

    As to this:

    Yeah. Change the laws. Make the training mandatory. Make it better. Give us the chance to teach these people better and spend more time doing so. Please. That would be awesome.

    Until then I'll keep doing what I can with what they give me.
    #50
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  11. eakins

    eakins Butler Maps

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    Lee has mentioned this to me when we've talked. He's working on other states.
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  12. GravelRider

    GravelRider AKA max384 Supporter

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    That's good to know. I had always thought the cost of the program was paid for by tax dollars as well. Thanks for the clarification.
    #52
  13. Johnny X

    Johnny X Giant Monkey

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    Yeah man, every time you pay to have that M on your license you are funding the program. Me too. It's ours. Remember that!

    If others want to talk about what sort of program we should have that's nice. But it's ours. We pay for it and we run it and we're the students. So if you want it to go in a certain direction open your mouth up! Not to me, I'm really not important.. just some dude. Tell the PAMSP. Tell your friends, tell the guys and girls you ride with. Then tell them to open their mouths too and to push the program in the direction they want it to go. They'll listen to you. Email, call, whatever.
    #53
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  14. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Great advice, I will ad to this, When you make recommendations make sure that you make those fully armed. Know what you want your program to achieve. If all you want is to teach people to ride, put butts in seats, any program will do that. If you really care about your riders and those who want to ride, make sure the program can achieve what it says it will. It's not about the hype, it is about results. To me I want to see programs that work in a direction to help reduce rider fatalities and have a plan that can work to achieve this end.
    #54
  15. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    Personally, I'd like to see a state cooperate with their program enough to give riders incentive to take further training; maybe raise the cost of endorsement by the cost of the class, unless they take the class. I'd like to see more states focus whatever their "beyond the basics" class is called to the particular problems in that state, the way Oregon's ART focuses on corners and line selection because most moto crashes are single vehicle in a corner.

    I'd also like to see ANY state set a precedent of incentivizing if not requiring SOME sort of safety training for all motor vehicle licenses- be it First Aid/CPR/First Responder or advanced driving skills.

    Odds are good Elon Musk will get his way first, and we'll be buying cars w/o steering wheels in another 20 years.
    #55
  16. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Great thoughts, Instead of making the state training programs big business, bring them back in house. Make the entry level training required if you want a permit, then riders have to come back with their own bike and take intermediate or advanced level training to earn a license.

    Make the penalties in both insurance and registration, if they are licensed they need to come back for higher level training or registration is higher. In New York snowmobile registration is $90, but if you are a member of a snowmobile club then it is only $45. So there are examples of this that can be used as a model as well.

    I am not a fan of free or cheap training, you have to pay to play.
    #56
  17. dwoodward

    dwoodward Long timer

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    I doubt any training is free except in the "No such thing as a free lunch" and "free phone (with two year contract)" sense of "free". :deal Oregon and Idaho are, of course, fully public operations, through state colleges. I think that helps a lot with consistency of training provided and equipment maintenance, but I am clearly biased.

    Annual updates today. Were told ODOT / Governor's Advisory Council are starting to push for more "advanced" training options. (Which is funny, because a year ago they were pushing us to drop to just the basic classes... whatev.)

    We already have ART (cornering and line selection, taught on a kart track). I wanted to bring it to SMSA a couple years ago- there was a parking lot a couple blocks from the hotel that was big enough to do something- but TPTB wouldn't go for that. Last year we ran a couple precision handling (cop drills) type classes for instructors; may roll out to the public later if it looks like there's interest. I'd like to see us extend our police and instructor only braking clinics (working up to 70mph full-on emergency stops and 60 mph full lane width swerving) to the public, although it also scares me just a bit to think about asking Joe Weekender to bring his dresser up to 70mph, then try to stop it again...
    #57
  18. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Bregan D'Aerthe

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    Great idea...if you want to greatly reduce the number of motorcycle riders.
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  19. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Bregan D'Aerthe

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    Wish there was some thing like that here...seems to me you'd need a huge area. (Something like an old airstrip.)
    #59
  20. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Illinois and PA are free to those participating, the program costs money. I believe that those taking the training should be paying for it, like any other education or training
    #60