Total Control Training is Pennsylvania's new official state program manager

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by OfirMX, Dec 6, 2017.

  1. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    So the question comes in, are we offering training as a way to encourage new riders and sell motorcycles or help riders become better and reduce fatalities? Not everyone belongs flying a plane, and not everyone belongs on a motorcycle.
    #61
  2. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Bregan D'Aerthe

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    Your idea would mean people must buy a motorcycle before getting a license.
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  3. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Bregan D'Aerthe

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    They are...paid for by MC tag fees.
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  4. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    Why's? What SAFETY advantage would derive from PA starting to charge for its motorcycle training courses?
    #64
  5. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    A lot of people already do, and you can legally ride on a permit in most states. And you do realize that in most states the majority of riders do not get a license by taking the class and as such need to have a bike to take the test at DMV
    #65
  6. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Yes, Total Control is going to be paid to provide the training, but the customer is getting the training for Free.
    #66
  7. Jarlaxle

    Jarlaxle Bregan D'Aerthe

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    Do you have any actual EVIDENCE of that?
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  8. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    Yes. Feel free to look up the states statistics by state. Look up the number of licenses issued each year and the number who do so by taking the class from the state program. There are states in which the class is mandatory, like Oregon, Florida, but in most that is not the case. New York is one of the highest that is not mandatory with almost 70% completing the class, Some states are as low as 10%
    #68
  9. dane.atkins

    dane.atkins Adventurer

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    I think what VX Rider and dwoodward are looking for is the "Peltzman Effect". The original study by Dr. Sam Peltzman, and the studies that followed, show that results from 'safety interventions' (whether on the vehicle, on the road, or through enforcement) are almost always less effective than predicted; the leading hypothesis is that driver's react to the new safer standard by increasing their risk-taking behavior.

    A much more controversial hypothesis, Dr. Wilde has proposed the idea of "Risk Homeostasis". This theory suggests that we all set a target level of risk, and seek to maintain it. If the margin of safety increases (such as increased safety technology) then we increase our risk-taking behavior to get us back to our Target Risk. Controversial or not, Dr. Wilde maintains a digital publication of this work at RiskHomeostasis.org.


    Whether you believe in Peltzman, or in Wilde, I believe they are both relevant to this discussion:
    #69
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  10. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore "You ain't black!"

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    I don't think it's quite like that. It's more subconscious. No one thinks, "I have ABS, so I'm gonna mash this accelerator."

    What has occurred is that cars are smoother, quieter, and handle better than they did 40-50 years ago. If you were going 90 mph in a car from the '70s, you knew it. It was loud. It felt "floaty." It didn't want to turn. It might be fun, but there was no doubt in your mind that it was a bad idea.

    I could drive my wife's minivan all day long at 90 mph. It's quiet. It sticks to the road. You never get a "this ain't such a hot idea" feeling.

    Here's another theory. The 55 mph speed limit taught a generation that speed limits are bullshit and can be disregarded at will. In the '60s and '70s the speed limit on interstates was 75 mph. If you were going 75, you were the fastest thing on the road. A rare car might come by at 80, but it was just that. Rare. Today the speed limit is typically 70, but if you're doing 80 in the left lane you're gonna have a line of pissed off drivers behind you. The average Joe couldn't care less abut speed limits.
    #70
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  11. dane.atkins

    dane.atkins Adventurer

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    I agree, it is most certainly subconscious. There is an additional layer of definitions buried in the textbooks for that --- if you type "Affect" into Google, somewhere down the list, Google will recommend "Affect, Psychology". Affect is best described, I think, as the series of emotions, intuitions, and experiences that mediate our perceptions, then influence our cognitive thoughts, and finally our behavior. (This all happens in milliseconds)


    This is where the discussion goes from academic, to real-world complex. New cars do seem to be safer all around, and roads are (mostly) well maintained. What is the safe speed to make a curb-to-curb right hand turn? 10mph, 20mph?

    I'll drop the jargon, and add my anecdotal experience as a cyclist: new cars have disconnected people from the road. Stand on a street corner and listen to the traffic as they corner --- some turn so quickly you can hear the tires as they struggle, close to the limits of friction. The drivers though, are oblivious to the squealing, ripping velcro sound; inside their cocoon is quiet, only disturbed by the sound of their choosing coming from the radio.


    Centering back on Motorcycles, and Rider Training: Risk management, and risk awareness are key issues, and they are underrepresented in formal rider training. It comprises Chapter 2 of the Pilot's Handbook of Aeronautical Knowledge (a must read for any Student Pilot or beyond). Of course, Pilot's are legally required 40+ hours of training, too.
    #71
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  12. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    I can't find a link to the study, I'm thinking Netherlands; they found the skills training yielded some improvement in rider safety, but the effects faded within months.


    Whereas RISK training had a more pronounced and lasting effect on it.

    My take away from reading it, the how of handling a bike...will get you down the road.

    But RISK training will make sure you get home.
    #72
  13. Norty01

    Norty01 RIDERCOACH (RETIRED!)

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    Just like any other stat, it needs to be quantified.

    Now, if you had "Deaths per 100,000 miles ridden." Then that would be a reasonable comparison.

    Trucks/cars use this for their safety ratings, why not motorcyclists?

    Besides, we've been hearing Lee's TC Program has reduced fatals since they started in Calif, back on Jan. 01, 2016...

    BTW~ Lee's program pays him $13 million for 3 years.
    #73
  14. outlaws justice

    outlaws justice On the Fringe

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    I agree, but I find it difficult to believe when after the first year you have a 2.75% reduction in fatalities that it is solely because of the training program and a small percentage of riders participate in, but when there is a 9.5% increase in fatalities it is not an increase, it is not the programs fault, they still claim it is a reduction in fatalities based on the fact that "More motorcycles were sold" now that is just plain crazy, those two items have no relation even if we had both numbers.
    #74
  15. Norty01

    Norty01 RIDERCOACH (RETIRED!)

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    Yup, we both know about "statistics" and how they are manipulated to serve a special interests' purpose.
    #75
  16. Navy Chief

    Navy Chief Long timer Supporter

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    This is great news, have been put off of the old ARC courses due to stale content. Unfortunately now when I go to the PAMSP page it tells me that there are no training sites within 100 miles of my zip code, there used to be two MSF sites. Anybody know when they are going to start rolling out to new (old) training sites and offering courses again?
    #76
  17. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    It looks like the PAMSP site is pretty jacked up right now. No matter what zip I put in, for any course and for any distance, I get a message that says "Unfortunately, our closest location is more than [entered] miles."
    #77
  18. Navy Chief

    Navy Chief Long timer Supporter

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    Kind of good to know it is not just me, thanks for checking. I will keep checking the website to see when they get it together.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    #78
  19. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    Or call them..the internet isn't all its cracked up to be.
    #79
  20. Paebr332

    Paebr332 Good news everyone!

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    Calling won't help right now. Here is the reply I got to my email inquiry:

    "We will be having ARC courses this season but not until sometime in the summer. I would recommend you check back with us sometime in May to see if we have specific dates available then. You can check using the website or by calling us at 1-800-845-9533 for updates closer to that time."
    #80