Training or no training

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by Andyvh1959, Oct 26, 2021.

?

Training or no training, WHY?

  1. I know everything I need to know

    16.1%
  2. Costs too much

    29.0%
  3. Takes too much of my time

    19.4%
  4. I get home from every ride, why do I need training

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I'm anxious about being "observed/evaluated" riding wise

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. I'm not a racer, why do I need training

    3.2%
  7. I'm anxious about dropping/crashing my bike in training

    3.2%
  8. I've been riding X-years, training, really?

    45.2%
  9. I don't want to be compared with other riders

    6.5%
  10. I can't/won't do a "track day" because of the speeds or actions

    12.9%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. nwbobber

    nwbobber Been here awhile Supporter

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    I didn't vote, because I definitely am pro training. I teach skiing, have done training in other sports, and feel that coaching is undervalued by most people. People spend all kinds of money farkling, upgrading etc. when the best investment in more fun is to make yourself a more competent rider.
    #21
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  2. Mrstig

    Mrstig Been here awhile

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    Big fan of training here. Wish there was more closer to me, but I understand im in an isolated area. With motorcycles, learning the hard way isn't a very good idea. Getting schooled before you hurt yourself is the better option.
    I've done a couple schools and plenty of track days, but I will say that some education can be had through reading and practice if a person is disciplined enough and works at it.
    #22
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  3. severely

    severely almost a noob

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    Thanks for the ideas. Last time I checked the school/track wanted drain plugs and oil filters safety wired and lights taped. No textiles allowed. Heartland Park Bonner Springs KS.
    #23
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  4. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Let's Go, Brandon!

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    that makes it more of a PITA for sure. I think you can get a K&N filter with a nut you can drill. I'll bet someone makes a pre-drilled oil plug, or can drill one for you.

    Maybe check the WERA board.

    13x Forums
    #24
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  5. Norty01

    Norty01 Occupant

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    To answer the OP's query,

    I'd say the biggest reluctance factor in attending a training class is FEAR.

    Fear of looking foolish, in front of other riders/coaches.

    Adults have a real problem with looking foolish, in front of their peers. Since you're an RC, you know this is a real obstacle to learning a new skill.

    Next~ the reluctance to taking add'l training falls on the fragile ego of the person's confidence. (I remember the 1st time I took an ARC, I was nervous because I wasn't sure what to expect.) Turns out, it's more FUN than the BRC! (If you look at my avatar, you'll notice I'm demonstrating Ex. 7, Decreasing Radius Curves.)

    The reasons you've listed in your poll, are all a result of FEAR.

    Btw~ I don't RC anymore, since the MSF is short sighted enough to not even bid on the Calif multi-year contract. $13 million per year is what the MSF left on the table. It's been 6 years now. That's $78 million the MSF chose not to pursue. Hard to work for a company that stoopid.
    #25
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  6. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    Without a doubt fear is a factor. Recently someone posted on a local forum that they wanted to find a open space where they could practice slow speed skills like tight turns. It turned out we had a Gymkhana coming up in a few days so I recommended that. His response was that it was too far away (110 miles each way) and that he wasn't interested in practicing and dropping his bike in front of a hundred folks. We tried to convince him that it was a lot of fun but he didn't show up.

    We try to set up a couple of Gymkhana's a year and they are free but turnout is pretty small, maybe a couple of dozen riders who participate and another dozen or so who stop by a watch.

    Is FEAR the biggest factor? For me the biggest factor is cost and logistics. Most of the training I have gotten over the years has been free and I didn't have to travel that far. I'd love to do some track days but the cost not having a "track" bike has mostly kept me from doing it. I did a California Superbike School a long time ago and recently did a mini track day that was not very inexpensive. It is much cheaper and more convenient to practice on the street. Yeah, someone will chime in with "the street is not a racetrack" but lets face it, many of us go out and practice our cornering skills on twisty mountain roads. Sure the track would be better but its just not something convenient for most of us.

    Then there are those courses like MSF and ARC. About 15 years ago I had the chance to do the MSF ERC for free at a local military base so I did. I enjoyed it and it was good practice but I can't say I learned anything new. I can't say it was any more difficult than the beginners course, we just got more time actually riding. I would not be willing to pay for another MSF course.

    ARC? I don't think that course is offered anywhere near me so I never considered it but if it was close by and not too expensive I might consider it.
    #26
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  7. Barry

    Barry Just Beastly

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    I think if you are motivated, you make it work by finding places to get training, finding the money, etc. etc. I know I have heard a L-O-T of sportbike riders talking shit, talking about tires, talking about "oh, these push, these stick", talking about guys they know that are so good, are fast, etc. etc... and not ONE has put a tire on a track. You mention track days, or track time, instruction, etc... and they clam up. You know why? Cuz Mr. Lap Timer doesn't lie, and cuts right through the cool guy bullshit. The fact is most people have no interest in trackdays, and probably almost as little in becoming a properly trained, accomplished rider.
    #27
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  8. mmattockx

    mmattockx Adventurer

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    This is true, the track is a very humbling environment. If you aren't willing to show how slow you really are and/or make a fool of yourself you are never going to be willing to ride on a track. That's what makes it such a great place to learn, because all the crap falls away and the truth is revealed. You just have to be willing to accept that truth.


    Mark
    #28
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  9. Brmax

    Brmax Been here awhile

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    I guess my pursuit in looking for local training type instruction has not been yet the priority, a secondary training for me is known and advertised in the followup after some basic rider training I gladly and imo smartly obtained.
    There is little training, advertisement in my eyes, even for persons as I where training or to be blunt a person who has no problem at all with following orders or the organized professional instructions we have in our true pursuits of life.
    The path for any training it seems is the art of marketing; this is obviously different for everyone.
    As I interestingly read the other comments and many with extreme experience in both years of bike ride time and professional instruction, some with vast professional instruction, it is clear the advertising is the need. Sorry to cut in on that decreasing budget pot, but its the fact. For me and many as we sometimes have to have those blatant ads every scroll up or down on our feeds. Hahaha
    I suppose in my hard arse retired mantality with a non fb account or others in that realm the known availability is slim.
    So in closing; I didn't see the questions in your survey pertaining to anyone like me or my interest, but rather the general smart ass kid that knows everything and absolutely nothing in life and only destructs equipment and other things valuable. So maybe not questioning the crowd in the; your one of those that know everything, you could rather have a truer sense of your desired class participants or that was a trait I long long ago desired to understand. Don't get butt hurt
    This as an old retired wrench, ( why are these humans regularly appointed without! Choice to be trainer ) of many aspects and equipment ops, maintenance, world licensing and yet sadly myself, not a dam bit of moto. Please shed a tear for me. As I know ya have one, like I ( adjusting my suspenders ) know I have a feeling, because my brother long ago told me amongst a cold beer, by god you do have a feeling, be it One you really do have one. :jack

    Im glad to now have time to be in your world
    Good day and Rock On
    #29
  10. C/1/509

    C/1/509 Think for yourself

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    #30
  11. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    The skill set needed to ride safely on public roads are not nearly as large as those needed to be a hero on track day.

    Taking lessons to lower lap times on track day has little crossover to riding safely on public roads.

    Is all of this training for track day, racing, or operating safely on public roads?
    #31
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  12. rd400racer

    rd400racer Long timer

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    I've been racing since before there was a such thing as track days or personal training, at least in the amateur levels. If you wanted to race, you got the rule book from whatever organization you were participating in and headed to the track. We took a morning class on Saturday, participated in a mock race where the only rule was don't crash (someone always crashes) and the next day you raced. After two races with your rookie shirt on, you became a bona fide racer. And that's it.

    I believe nowadays people over think racing too much. Get out and do it if you have the itch. I've only participated in two track days ever, and that was to shake down a bike I'd built over the winter. Personally I find them to be a joke. I compare it to jerking off versus screwing a super model.

    As far as training goes, and I'm asking it rhetorically so don't take it personal...who are you to think you're good enough to train me? About the only people I'd pay money to be trained by would be Keith Code or a school sponsored by an ex champion like Eddie Lawson or Colin Edwards.

    My two cents worth.
    #32
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  13. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    I have been a daily street rider since 1978, and went to a track day a few years ago, in the hope of learning something new.
    I don't understand why track days are so glorified nowdays.
    You can ride faster and lean to the limit, but nobody teaches you anything.
    The added safety of no cars, no light poles, no spilled Diesel, etc., is eclipsed by the clumpsy dangerous moves of some of the users of the track, especially those with racer's syndrome.

    At least succesful street riding requires much more than going fast and extreme leaning.
    Basic and advanced MSF has been good, especially for new riders, but are also limited to what can be done in one or two days.
    They can't teach you how to ride in a storm, cross-gusts, around big vehicles, in flooded roads, or how to emergency braking from 80 mph, or deal with flying road debris, birds, agresive dogs or crazy drivers.

    I have learned much more from good books, good riders, from the sport of Motogymkhana, and from weekly practices in empty highways and parking lots.
    There are things that you must learn by yourself, that nobody else can teach you.
    Those are the things that connect you with your machine and your environment, like sense of available traction, or the proper speed to enter a curve, or fine throttle and front brake control, or balance at crawling speeds on rough terrain.

    :muutt
    #33
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  14. VX Rider

    VX Rider Long timer

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    I'm going to toss this out as an idea...

    The training industry is not aligned with our needs.
    the training industry in the US market treats, training for motorcycles
    as a profit from the owners of 'toys' model.
    and not a provider of valuable survival skills at a reasonable fee model.

    And to another's point the trainers my not have knowledge or skills commensurate with the fees.

    from summarizing the comments so far, cost and availability....are major preventatives

    Cost could be in two forms, it's too expensive, or its hard to justify paying for the perceived lack
    value for the money and time invested

    Availability, is pretty easy, the fact that I'm in a fairly large metro area and the one class that is close is during the work week.
    See comment about "toys", because obviously working people don't need accommodation.

    My take away if training were more readily available and not $400/500, or our insurance rates were lowered to get some tangible value
    there would be more people taking those classes

    same reason a lot of us change our own tires - time and money
    #34
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  15. Cheshire

    Cheshire Been here awhile

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    To refresh my memory & make sure I wasn't operating on perceived biases, I went over the various MSF course descriptions. Yeah...nope, the only one that interests me is the BRC that I'll keep recommending to potential riders that ask me about riding at gas stations and such.

    The rest of the courses... I'm not traveling 100+ miles so I can pay several hundred $$ for a few hours of, "this is what we're doing, this is how it's done, you try, now go home." I don't learn anything that way... I'm just making someone else rich to make me frustrated.

    What I'd love is coaching...guided practice or a mentor something. Closest I know of in my area is getting a bunch of soccer cones, finding a decent abandoned parking lot, and laying out my own course from what I can find in books and online.
    #35
  16. windblown101

    windblown101 Long timer Supporter

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    Everyone has to train. It's a core requirement to improve in any new activity and the sole means to improve skills at an existing activity.

    Is it a waste of time and money to get better at something than one needs to be? That's the million dollar question. Even a rider who plans to never compete or exceed the posted speed limit can benefit from advanced training when the unexpected occurs and the additional skills learned (and at least occasionally practiced) translate into having a pucker moment rather than a ride in a meat wagon.

    However time and money are both finite. The vast majority of participants in a casual activity reach a point where formal training may not yield a worthwhile result given the cost in time & money. I've run maybe 40 trackdays in my life? I don't do them anymore. The scales shifted on the enjoyment/ education versus cost in time and money. I miss doing trackdays but don't regret the decision. That money now gets spent on long trips, extra bikes to play with on the street and dirt, home repairs, etc. :)
    #36
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  17. ZappBranigan

    ZappBranigan Still Riding

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    Yes, this is a major issue. Time is a valuable commodity for many of us and if a course is not offered at a time or place that's convenient, it does us no good.

    I think this is on-point. The assumption behind training is that the "trainer" knows more than the "learner" and that the training is therefore beneficial to the learner. But motorcycle training is just as subject to fashions, fads, trends, and the "I'm good so do it my way" attitude which may or may not be of any benefit to the learner. A specific technique that was taught 30 years ago is now considered bad form and "not the right way" to ride. But the laws of physics haven't changed in 30 years, so what has? Fashions, fads and trends, that's what.

    I only took one MSF course, it was supposed to be an Experienced Rider Course (ERC) but when we got there the instructors decided that since the majority of the people attending were "experienced riders" with no MC endorsements (IOW they'd been riding for a year or two with no MC license) they would gear the class towards getting those riders a passing grade on the license test - which I didn't need because I'd already been licensed for 27 years at that point. So ultimately the course was of virtually no value to me.

    So I think the one item missing from your poll is: No perceived value seen in the current training options. I have no interest in track days and from my very limited exposure to the MSF courses I see no value in what they have to offer, either. So why give up a nice day (or weekend) of riding and a few hundred bucks to learn what I already know and/or to learn something that will be of no benefit to me?
    #37
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  18. Jim Moore

    Jim Moore Let's Go, Brandon!

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    Six dates at VIR next year. An hour away.

    Nationwide Schedule | California SuperBike School
    #38
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  19. Strong Bad

    Strong Bad Former World's Foremost Authority Supporter

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    Hey @Andyvh1959 you started this thing are you going to contribute or answer questions?
    #39
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  20. Cheshire

    Cheshire Been here awhile

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    #40