Travel in the time of COVID-19

Discussion in 'Trip Planning' started by Grinnin, Feb 27, 2020.

  1. AllSeasonRider

    AllSeasonRider Wandering, maybe a little lost...

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    Your fantastical ability to oversimplify and draw sweeping conclusions from a single data point is worrying and dangerous. I suggest you read a little more (i.e. read any) about North Korea's COVID-19 response.
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  2. ATadam

    ATadam Been here awhile

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    Didn’t South Korea respond with overwhelming measures early on like tracking and testing and contact tracing and quarantining people? A lockdown is necessary if you fail to contain an outbreak much like calling the fire department vs using a fire extinguisher.
  3. bikerfish

    bikerfish flyfishandride

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    South Korea had a plan in place for such and event, instead , Trump fired the US pandemic response team in 2018. South Korea worked together, following science and facts, not thoughts and prayers and hope. South Korea did not make the pandemic political, they worked together to benefit their citizens, unlike the US, which politicized it from the very beginning, and it still continues that way, much to the shock of the world.
    I really hope we can travel freely soon, as in next year. Remember, freedom is free, have to work for it, which lots of selfish idiots in this country refuse to do.
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  4. HarveyM

    HarveyM Been here awhile

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    if the American Public were willing to "Infected are required to go into isolation in government shelters. Their phones and credit card data are used to trace their prior movements and find their contacts. Those who are determined to have been near the infected individual receive phone alerts with information about their prior movements. Patients who recover and test negative twice are released. Close contacts and infected individuals with minimal symptoms who can measure their own temperatures and whose family members are free of any chronic disease are required to self-quarantine for two weeks. Local monitoring teams calls the quarantined twice a day to make sure that they stay where they are and to ask about symptoms. Those ordered to self-quarantine are required to download an app that alerts officials if the patient moves outside of the quarantine. Violators are fined up to $2,500" as they do in South Korea lockdowns probably wouldn't be needed. (From Wikipedia)
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  5. Homer GSA

    Homer GSA R1200GSA 2008

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    Two Approaches

    Approach One - Total Lockdown followed by track and trace.
    Australia and NZ totally locked down at the start. During this time the Govt implemented a track and trace app.
    Australia has 1.6% of the deaths of the US adjusted.
    NZ has .9% of the deaths of the US adjusted.

    Approach Two - Social Distancing, Masks, Track and Trace, OTT disinfecting.
    South Korea was ready for the pandemic. After H1N1 they implemented track and trace, Masks, SD and disinfection. When SARS hit they implemented this and stopped it. When Covid arrived they did the same. They did not need to lockdown BECAUSE of their preparations.
    And South Korea was initially the HARDEST hit country!

    Australia has just had a second wave hit one of our States, Victoria. It just went total lockdown, harder than the first one. Our track and trace and border restrictions has effectively kept it in Victoria. Watch this space to see how Lockdowns work.

    How did the US approach work? Can you explain how two democratic modern countries, Australia and the US, can have such dramatically different outcomes.

    Why does the US have 62.5 times the number of deaths , adjusted for population, that your little brother has?

    All yours......
  6. Homer GSA

    Homer GSA R1200GSA 2008

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    Yes. They were ready because of SARS and H1N1. Check out “The big lesson from South Korea’s coronavirus response” on YouTube channel Vox.
  7. AllSeasonRider

    AllSeasonRider Wandering, maybe a little lost...

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    "You can always count on the Americans to do the right thing after they have tried everything else."
    -Winston Churchill
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  8. AllBlackPearl

    AllBlackPearl Alpoholic

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    Looking at it from the outside it rather looks like

    "You can always count on the American politicians (!) to blame everyone else, including all fellow Americans who are of the political opposition or different in any other way, lie excessively to distract from their own mistakes and incompetence, and "retaliate" decisively to distract from and cover up what they have done wrong, before, during, and after they have tried everything else."

    The same is becoming more and more true for the little lap dog and wannabe America, the UK.
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  9. DirtFarmer

    DirtFarmer Has anyone seen my mother

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    South Korea also used caning on non-maskers.

    A proven technique that should be used in Kansas.
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  10. jfman

    jfman Long timer

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    They have less "freedums" so they decide to actualy listen and obey the covid fight rules.

    Here we gladly take the massive govt handouts but we also want our freedums and eat it too.


    So were gonna fight this longer and when the party is over well split the bill.
  11. petertakov

    petertakov Been here awhile

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    I suggest you read a little more carefully - we were talking about SOUTH Korea. Also, you might discuss your perception of "dangerous" with your therapist - a lot of work to be done there if you are scared of some guy on the other sidemside of the GLOBE making "sweeping conclusions" in a forum.

    And yes, lockdown is stupid in 99% of the cases because there is no proof whatsoever that it does reduce the amount of people who ultimately get infected. With the sole exception of the few places on Earth where hospitals did get overcrowded (mostly because of bad planning and panic) the lockdown makes zero sense and that becomes more and more evident with the increasing number of people getting infected once the lockdowns have been mostly lifted.
  12. AllSeasonRider

    AllSeasonRider Wandering, maybe a little lost...

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    Right, so I made a typo/misstep and typed North instead of South. My point still stands. Read up.

    Not sure where you get info from re: lockdowns, but there is study after study that they do work. They don't need to reduce the number that ultimately get infected, but it slows the spread and gives time for better treatments and vaccines to emerge. They don't work were people ignore them, and don't take any precautions when they do have to leave their home. And of course they don't work when they're lifted too soon - we are seeing infections and deaths spike as a result of that.

    Re: "mostly because of bad planning", that's exactly the whole point. Thank you.

    I think you're dangerous because your attitude is that of someone who considers it either a non-issue, or inevitable that the entire population will get it so why bother trying to slow it. In either case, it means lives are at stake. To be clear, I don't find you as an individual, regardless of where you live, of being any particular threat to me, as an individual. Rather, the collection of people who think the way you do are a danger to the collection of those of who know better.

    The US's response to this whole thing is an international embarrassment, and is doing little else but to condemn us to a longer recovery than necessary.
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  13. CycleSick

    CycleSick Been here awhile

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    The one thing that bothers me the most about this "lockdown vs. no lockdown" is the simple fact that the so-called experts telling everyone to stay home are virtually 100% on a government payroll and as such, loose nothing. Take away their ability to earn a paycheck and you might find the quarantine rules and closures suddenly much less drastic...regardless of the outcomes. It's easy to talk tough when the taxpayers are keeping a roof over your head.
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  14. AllSeasonRider

    AllSeasonRider Wandering, maybe a little lost...

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    Not to hyper-politicize the whole thing, but one side of the gov't payroll wants to keep folks home and extend the added unemployment benefits, while the other wants to take it away and rush the economy to reopen. And I'm not sure who exactly you mean by "experts", but if you mean the politicians, the vast majority of their income and wealth is not from their federal paycheck, so I don't see that having a major impact.
  15. CycleSick

    CycleSick Been here awhile

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    Then allow me to simplify it: Those in leadership positions with deep financial reserves telling those who live from paycheck to paycheck to stay home and starve. Or, as Marie-Antoinette was to have said, upon being told that her starving peasant subjects had no bread, "Let them eat cake."
  16. Homer GSA

    Homer GSA R1200GSA 2008

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    Hi Peter

    You must have missed post #345 where I again prove you wrong.

    Have a read. I also left a question for your expert input.

    Cheers
  17. Oilhed

    Oilhed MarkF Supporter

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    Easy in the USA most people do not trust the government. They refuse to do what they are told. Also politicians will say or do what they think the voters want to hear not what is recommended by experts just to keep their jobs.
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  18. petertakov

    petertakov Been here awhile

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    Looking at human history, every single mess on a huge scale has been started by people, who were convinced that "they know better". But you "don't know better", you don't know at all. Lockdown has never been done before and there is no single study providing based on actual data that it works. Please, post a reference to any of the "study after study" that you refer to. And what do you mean by the "lockdown doesn't work if lifted too soon"? How long do you believe it is actually possible to keep the entire human population locked before cannibalism becomes an issue?

    As far as vaccines are concerned, could you please refer us to a vaccine for any if the Corona viruses that have been in circulation for decades? Or are you willing to treat yourself to Putin's vaccine that comes out next month on the premise that "it's fine"?

    And yes, a great number of people will get infected no matter what and a great number of people will inevitably die just like every anything like this happens. Just because you and many like you lived in blissful ignorance before media started counting bodies, doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Italy, for example, lost more or less the same number of people to regular flu just a couple of years ago and that never even made the news - doesn't mean it didn't happen.

    Treating people is one of the most expensive human activities and killing economy doesn't help much. And people DO die as a result of economic crisis as well, you know, and in huge numbers.
  19. Homer GSA

    Homer GSA R1200GSA 2008

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    Peter now you’ve missed post #356....

    What are you on, an iPhone 4 or Apple Watch to miss these posts?
  20. HarveyM

    HarveyM Been here awhile

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    Give us your supporting data, Show us the studies of increased cannibalism due to lockdown when "Lockdown has never been done before"

    As for the economy- according to the cost of human life the US government uses the loss of life in the US is currently over 1.5 trillion dollars.


    Here's some articles on the effectiveness of lockdown:

    COVID-19 mortality rates in the European Union, Switzerland, and the UK: effect of timeliness, lockdown rigidity, and population density

    Conclusions: The European experience confirms that early, effective interventions of 86 lockdown are fundamental to minimizing the COVID-19 death toll.

    Physical distancing interventions and incidence of coronavirus disease 2019: natural experiment in 149 countries
    Conclusions Physical distancing interventions were associated with reductions in the incidence of covid-19 Earlier implementation of lockdown was associated with a larger reduction in the incidence of covid-19.



    Impact of lockdown on COVID-19 epidemic in Île-de-France and possible exit strategies
    Results: We estimate the reproductive number at 3.18 [3.09, 3.24] (95% confidence interval) prior to lockdown and at 0.68 [0.66, 0.69] during lockdown, thanks to an 81% reduction of the average number of contacts.
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