Trip master,RNS, ICO, & Roadbook tips and tricks

Discussion in 'Racing' started by Mudguts, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. sidewayz_control

    sidewayz_control Been here awhile

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    The only grub I have with the commercially available tablets and such is the ruggedness regardless of the protection case. For a weekend warrior, fine but if I'm paying big money to enter a rally and the roadbook is the element that keeps me on track I want it as reliable as possible. The commercial stuff just isn't.

    I've gone through minimum one iPhone per year for 3 years using the Rally Blitz app but have gone now to an ICO. Tried, otter box, highway dirbikes and one other rugged case. Have never done a single event without issues. And new quality USB cable every single day as precaution. Maybe it's because of the conditions where I ride, not uncommon, especially at beginning or end of season (I very much envy those who can ride al year), to start the day bellow or close to freezing (if it was bellow freezing long enough over night, it's game over in the morning) and then temperatures in the high 20C (75F-80F), dust, then rain, then sun with 100% humidity from the rain... Add dust that is ferritic and the tactile screen go crazy and USB connectors die (I think that dust is the real killer with the freezing to hot heat cycles)

    The app is great, I use it all the time for Navigational car rallies with my daughter (although the Zeroing function doesn't work as good on the newer phones). But on a bike, the hardware doesn't survive.

    Ivan
  2. 640 Armageddon

    640 Armageddon Xplorer Supporter

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    This was exactly my point of view Ivan. ERTF may not be a monopoly by the exact definition of the word, but I feel that this is similar to the Microsoft game. Both ICO and RNS I think they've lost customers because of ERTF ''laws'' . So in my mind, if I'd like to make a device that measures the distance, then it'd be a moot point, knowing that I may hit a wall, because of that.
    If on the other hand, we have a protocol, that we have to comply, being pdf, being a size format, then it's all easy busy and its a game for everyone to swoop in. It's close to 2020 and I think that heavy duty tablets, or just tablets if the riders want (I want to take part in a race with my LG V500, it's up to me, as it is to go with a manual roadbook, or a motorized one) can be tweaked with software to lock specific functions. So you come to the bivvy and we upload a certain software that locks the GPS, and allows only the application to run. Should you choose to use another one during the race, or tamper with it, then a penalty would be added to your time. I mean, why do they have to be specific devices which add another $$ to the bill? My feeling, and that was exactly the discussion with Paul at the time, is that we want the sport to expand. Not to be controlled. Us oldies, we know what happened to F1 and in MotoGP as soon as more controlled and Magneti Marelli game started...

    Regarding the $$$$$ @DaveRMS , I too feel the same. Most of us are in the same boat and we do design what we love. What I mean, and that was pointed to the organizers (the ones who broadcast it as such), is that you cannot play with my intelligence, and telling be that the RB printing will swap to digital because of environmental reasons and because people rip their paper rolls in the middle of the desert and they leave the papers there. I 've been to Eco Race and I know exactly what happens to the Garbage of the bivouacs each and every day, and most of us know that with a couple of rain days, the paper will disappear in the desert. With the costs of printing, the hassle of handing in new pages because of changes in the course, the last minute page prints etc. that I understand. But saying that we save the environment and we go 'Green' because we swapped from paper to digital, makes me feel like I am watching TV commercials from McDonalds.


    Bike looks good and slim.
    Good thinking for the cell towers! Two way messaging is awesome. Video chatting it'd be good to follow :p
    Get some more pics uploaded Paul, gotta get out on the bike more these days. :(
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  3. dragos

    dragos Master of disaster.

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    I do have the feeling this opens a big can of worms.
    If some teams already hire people for "roadbook optimization" purposes, can you imagine what can be done with a general purpose tablet that can be hacked quite easily?
    It's enough to make it communicate and transfer the roadbook info to some other device (a phone) you have in your pocket, you don't even need to do much stuff on the tablet itself.
  4. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    Heres an idea. If you win a stage then anyone else can swap to your bike and you ride theirs. Sponsor crap etc is velcro on so can easily be swapped. All bikes need to have a minimum level of gear, ability etc but after that its free for all.

    Nav gear the same. Paper/digital whatever.

    Nobody would spend much knowing it can be taken at the end of the day.

    Won't happen but still.
  5. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    Or.........Run whatever you want, factory or not, 2wd moto, trials bike who cares.

    However at the start of the rally are riders a given a control toolbox. If you can shave a head with a hand file for a few more HP go for your life. If you can supercharge it with a selection of ratchets, thumbs up!

    Although I think Manuel (aka shoestring) might be odds on favourite..........
  6. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    I am tired so may be talking out my :kat
  7. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    Lets just go rallying..................
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  8. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

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    Actually, one of our goals is that our new dedicated device will cost less--less than a basic kit for basic use, and much, much less than the cost of a full Dakar setup for the equipment it replaces.

    A long time ago I accepted that there is no universal solution. There is a very cool community of people that is solving a set of problems with RallyBlitz/iPads/Bluetooth buttons for one group of riders. That's awesome. What we're trying to do is solve some different problems for organizers and pro teams. I think that's awesome, too. Just different strokes for different folks. And, there is some overlap. And that's cool, too.

    Dave
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  9. tileman

    tileman Long timer

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    Ok, I'm a bit more awake now.

    Hopefully Dave you or others may have an answer to this.

    Are the GPS antennas that are provided with the Rallymax G less likely to have connection issues with satellites than the inbuilt GPS installed in a Iphone/Ipad?

    I'd percieve that most hobby riding I'd do using Rallyblitz/Rallynav software would involve forested areas where reception can/could be sketchy. It's not a huge deal with signal drop outs etc its just I'd prefer to run fully digital but I do have an ICO unit so instead of using software etc I can just run that.

    However if I feel rich one day soon I may jump to a GPS based tripmaster which can eliminate a wheel speed sensor hence my question.
  10. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer Supporter

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  11. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

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    If you're asking me if I like ICO's external GPS, then yes, I do. ;-)

    Obviously you have more than enough anecdotal evidence that all the available solutions are "good enough" for their intended purposes.

    I think you said it best...

    :-)
  12. pilo

    pilo Rhymes with below

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    For what it is worth we, PepeRico/RallyBlitz, were never reached out to by the FIM and invited to present our wares. We might have. We have things that I think are interesting and innovative. Not sure what that all means regarding openness and fairness, but it is a surprise since I think it is fair to say we've made a pretty significant "place" in the burgeoning of digital roadbooks/navigation. One only needs to look at the obvious layout similarities in the "development" setup on post #488 to RallyBlitz Nav Pro, including the location of the waypoint arrow. Perhaps the FIM has never heard of us, but if they are really looking for digital options I find that really hard to believe. No one has a digital solution, commercially available, that encompasses the functionality and proven durability the RB solutions offer. The FIM must not care what we are working on or we don't have connections in the right places.
  13. pilo

    pilo Rhymes with below

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    Hi all,

    I've reread the post above and realize it sounds a bit defensive. I didn't mean to imply that there is something unfair going on with the selection process. I was overreacting to not be considered a "Digital Roadbook Company" but I get that Dave likely meant that FIM was reaching out to current digital device providers (ERTF, ICO, etc.). Regardless, I'm so proud of what we've contributed to moving this 'medium' of racing and playing into the modern age. We'll continue to develop and serve the many people that have supported us by buying the apps. It's all a way to build more momentum in pro and play rally. Growing the interest is great for everyone.
  14. marsfrog

    marsfrog Adventurer

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    PDF is actually a stupid format for devices like this, overcomplicated, scaling to different resolutions is not guaranteed to be seamless, displaying it needs a lot of memory and processing power, modification is difficult (try replacing a few instructions while maintaining your own annotations) etc. It was literally designed for printing stuff out, not for digital consumption. A proper format like the Openrally one lowers the bar of entry for new manufacturers considerably, making PDF work reliably is probaly only archievable for well-funded existing manufacturers.
  15. VxZeroKnots

    VxZeroKnots Long timer

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    I think you’re correct in saying open rally is the future, and such a concept was even discussed before that.

    But before you imply that using PDF as stupid to begin with, might I ask what exactly you've done to advance digital rally? I think phil and rich as innovators did an excellent job working with what was available at the time when most of the established folks involved in rally were originally detractors of the digital concept

    I was happy to follow their lead in utilizing PDF as a primary output for tulip instead of being like so many in this sport who are focused on proprietary and secret nonsense in order to grab a slice of pie so small it might as well not exist
  16. marsfrog

    marsfrog Adventurer

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    The magnitude of my insignificance bears no comparison with any object or phenomenon in our Universe :)

    But usefulness of PDF is a close second in any application besides printing it out. Digital roadbooks need structured data to work efficiently, PDF is just a pile of coordinates with very elaborate rules for converting them to (printed) pixels. Design of useful standards is super hard, PDF was designed for completely different application than rally racing, and in my opinion you should aim for a better standard than that to have any chance of succeeding.

    Tulip is fantastic btw :)
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  17. VxZeroKnots

    VxZeroKnots Long timer

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    Thanks!

    And agreed, but it’s important to understand tulip outputs pdf, because RB and traditional holders input pdf, because Rally Navigator output PDF before readily available digital devices existed. Truth be told I doubt anyone involved with digi nav wanted to use it in the first place, I know I sure didn’t.

    It’s just what was available at the time as we clawed our way out of the primordial muck.

    :norton
  18. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

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    My .02... PDF is a powerfully relevant common denominator. Other formats add a lot, but PDF is ubiquitous.
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  19. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer Supporter

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    Especially while road books still need to be printed.
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  20. theantipaul

    theantipaul Reforming Neandertal

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    Hope all is well Jack, but yeah, why even bother, if we're going digital in the future I can't start recommending guys buy a papyrus roadbook holder "for a real rallye like Dakar" when I know it'll be a pet rock a year from now.

    Creating RallyBlitz a fully functional digital system wasn't enough for some, I guess they needed to write new unique code for the everything else rallye as well. For the end user, we don't notice, PDF's load just fine on an iPad mini and there are work around's for any issues with printing papyrus.

    As a long time user for me it's not stupid, it's simple, open Tulip, edit the RB, export new PDF/rbx, load new PDF/rbx, ride new PDF/rbx. Soon the exported PDF will come with standardized markings, with options at export. How else will you be able to distribute a RB last minute at the start line to discourage cheating? Or do we just go back to letting you sleep with it overnight and mark it up.............?

    The day is coming when most rallies will allow a tablet, some will resist, most, the intelligent ones will see the value of growing the sport. The future cutting edge is digital, QED.