Trip master,RNS, ICO, & Roadbook tips and tricks

Discussion in 'Racing' started by Mudguts, Oct 26, 2013.

  1. DirtJack

    DirtJack Adventurer Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    3,328
    Location:
    395 miles South East of Orla, Texas
    Well said, Paul.

    The reason that PDF will be with us in a digital road book world is that the problem it solves in the print world (documents print the same independent of the print system) needs to be solved in the digital road book world. Fortunately the inexpensive android/iOS devices, which you and others have demonstrated are reliable in race conditions, already support PDF document imaging. This makes it easier for designers/implementers of road book authoring systems such as Tulip and Rally Navigator. Both implement Open Rally in their output files and can be used by the RBNavPro and RoadBook Reader apps. The RN Reader app supports simple auto color markup of waypoints which works rather well. RN Recorder app makes it easy to include photographs in the instruction portion of a tulip. Lots of neat stuff simply because we are using low cost digital devices. We'll see a lot more digital road book application to areas other than the various forms of Rally Racing, such as dual sport rides, adventure travel, etc. Being able to do this inexpensively on digital devices we already own will make it happen sooner than we might now think is possible.
    theantipaul and dunc289 like this.
  2. 650rs

    650rs n00b

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2016
    Oddometer:
    1
    Location:
    Europe
    Do you guys think that the classic paper roadbook method will still be relevant in 3-5 years? I would like to give racing a try from next year and don't know if I should spend the money on a classic roadbook and tripmaster setup. I'm in Europe if that matters.
  3. GezwindeSpoed

    GezwindeSpoed Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,113
    Location:
    The land of the Dutchmen
    All rallies I know in Europe (Albania, Serres, Hellas, Tuareg, Balkan) are still using paper
  4. rides2little

    rides2little Braaaaaap Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,307
    Location:
    Lost in Utardia
    Hellas, Serres and Tuareg are all testing and allowing digital in some classes....
  5. mikseven

    mikseven Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2014
    Oddometer:
    84
    Location:
    Italy
    From 2016 all major rallies in Europe allow Electronic Roadbooks.

    Hellas, Hispania, Serres, Albania and I Think also Panafrica and other.
  6. GezwindeSpoed

    GezwindeSpoed Long timer

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2009
    Oddometer:
    1,113
    Location:
    The land of the Dutchmen
  7. rides2little

    rides2little Braaaaaap Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,307
    Location:
    Lost in Utardia
    Turareg will allow next year.
    Hellas had several people running Rally Blitz NavPro on iPads last year and more this year.
    Serres had several using Comaster 2 devices last year, and one of the Italians using it did very well if I recall, and running it on a 2 stroke.
  8. mikseven

    mikseven Adventurer

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2014
    Oddometer:
    84
    Location:
    Italy
    Yes, he was in my team. We won several categories from 2016 and usually finish in top 10 in both Hellas and Serres.

    This year in Hellas also 2 English riders tried Comaster and the were very happy.

    Anyway it-s a race device, totally different from tablet solutions.
  9. godwinmt

    godwinmt They call me Crash

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2011
    Oddometer:
    1,891
    Location:
    Seymour, IN
    Anyone know off the top of their heads what size o-rings the drive and screen lock o-rings are on an RB730A? Need to get some on order and am away from my bike at the moment...
  10. rides2little

    rides2little Braaaaaap Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,307
    Location:
    Lost in Utardia
  11. pdanjou

    pdanjou There's a rear brake?!

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2018
    Oddometer:
    61
    Location:
    Ex-Sovietstan
    That's one BAD idea.
    Why make it over-complicated and introduce another item that can fail for various reasons if paper just works fine? so silly
    Good luck reading that display in various light and dirt conditions oh and goodbye to coloring by your own system
  12. StaryS3

    StaryS3 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Oddometer:
    36
    Location:
    Enduro Location
    It is progres baby... future, nothing else
  13. pdanjou

    pdanjou There's a rear brake?!

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2018
    Oddometer:
    61
    Location:
    Ex-Sovietstan
    you confused regress with progress ;)
    it's another one of those "a solution to a problem that didn't exist" stories
  14. StaryS3

    StaryS3 Adventurer

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2015
    Oddometer:
    36
    Location:
    Enduro Location
    OK, maybe not progres, just easy way to use. I prefer paper version but new generation of users has different expectations. That I mean future.
  15. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

    Joined:
    Nov 12, 2003
    Oddometer:
    4,502
    Location:
    USA
    You're ignoring all the problems a race organizer deals with. As a rider I like paper more, and I argued in that direction until a suitable electronic solution existed. But as an event organizer (I'm that too) I would like an easy to use super reliable electronic solution with all the right features to make my job easier. Here are a few reasons why...
    1) Printing hundreds of paper roadbook rolls for a large event is a HUGE pain in the ass.
    2) Handing out paper roadbooks early so there is time to custom mark them up also allows the mapmen time to make a "secret" course not so secret for the top teams, giving an unfair advantage to them and spoiling a core element of rally. Standardized automatic mark-ups via electronic device allows last minute roadbook distribution so mapping the course becomes much more difficult, and "cheater" notes in the roadbook become impossible.
    3) Integrating Odometer, Heading display, as well as WPM, Speed Limit and other race compliance functions into the same device that displays the roadbook greatly simplifies the dash.
    4) The sunlight readability issue has already been solved.

    As a rider I could list a bunch of different arguments in the opposite direction (there are good and bad things about both options). Race promoters and organizations will make the final decision for their events (that's already in progress, in favor of an electronic solution), so it's becoming somewhat of a waste of time arguing in favor of paper, especially since electronic roadbooks have already proven themselves in real race conditions. A more productive discussion might be around the features that the electronic devices could or should provide.
    ssandijss, BucketHead, dragos and 3 others like this.
  16. pdanjou

    pdanjou There's a rear brake?!

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2018
    Oddometer:
    61
    Location:
    Ex-Sovietstan
    Sure maybe if they are purpose-built devices (expensive then). But using some phone/tablet+app would be a bad idea.
    If they prove themselves sure...but still, if it fails for any reason (and there's plenty options) then you're out.
  17. tileman

    tileman Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2007
    Oddometer:
    2,160
    Location:
    Melbourne, OZ
    Each to there own. I love the paper roadbooks. I also believe the digital ones are awesome. If I rally again I'll go with either. Damn site easier to mount in my book anyway. Both have pros/cons.
  18. rides2little

    rides2little Braaaaaap Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 12, 2007
    Oddometer:
    1,307
    Location:
    Lost in Utardia
    Carlos M likes this.
  19. Bicycle Phil

    Bicycle Phil Been here awhile

    Joined:
    May 21, 2003
    Oddometer:
    836
    Location:
    Left Coast
  20. DaveRMS

    DaveRMS Long timer

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2005
    Oddometer:
    1,480
    Location:
    Mossyrock, WA
    Hi folks, from Chile.

    Testing here is going great. Naturally we have tested a lot on our own, but these tests really are for the organizations, to test their processes and to validate our vision for digital roadbooks, which is probably different than many people assume.

    Our motto: "New Technology to enable the Old Way". For us, a digital roadbook is a time machine to transport us back to a time when digital reconnaissance was not possible.

    Our #1 rule is to never make navigation easier. In Thierry Sabine's era, rally was probably more than 50% navigation, and much less than 50% speed. Today, it's maybe 10% navigation. All the navigation is done before the riders leave the bivouac. Too much time to study, to map, to mark, to paint. After the homework is done, it's only a sprint race.

    We are trying to restore the balance. To make navigation the main aspect of rally. To bring back that challenge.

    We're really trying to solve a problem for the sport and for the organizers, not for the pilots. That problem is controlling the secrecy of the roadbooks. In our model, the roadbook never leaves the organizers hands in an unencrypted form. And it is not unlocked until they decide. So, end of mapping and so forth. It's an attempt to "level the playing field". Now, factory teams and amateur riders alike will have to decipher the same roadbooks in real time, while they race--not before.

    About the "doomsday" reliability of paper... sadly, this sport is no longer "adventurous". It makes me cry. For real. Riders are typically 5 minutes from a helicopter. Or an amateur has a Spot button. Maybe two. So, the days of holding scraps of a paper roadbook in your hand after smashing your MD, so that you don't have to survive for 6 days in Mali are gone.

    About a "computer" or "fragile" electronic item. Every race uses a primary control computer for safety and navigation (Stella, ERTF, Rally Comp, etc). This is not new. Most are plastic. Most leak in the rain. All are a single point of failure. And yet they have worked, more or less, for at least 10 years.

    We're pretty damn confident that our device is stronger than any other piece of safety or navigation equipment on the bikes today. Ours is billet aluminum and a 6mm polycarbonate shield over the LCD. We've performed all sorts of crash tests in the lab and in the field. It's damn solid.

    Anyway, I write this just to be transparent about the reasons for our product. I made my first digital roadbooks in 2012 while working on Rally Navigator. For 6 years I was an opponent of digital, mostly because I knew organizers did not want IT problems. However, when the FIM and ASO and factory teams finally told me in 2018 that they actually WANTED digital, for the sporting reasons that I mentioned before, I dusted off my prototypes and moved full-speed ahead to continue to do my best to meet the needs of these customers.

    So, that's the story behind this device. For the sake of the sport, I hope we've gotten it right.

    Dave
    chasejj, FlatSix, Gany and 20 others like this.