Tubliss High Pressure Bladder Leak-down Rate & Filling in the Boonies

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by motobene, May 27, 2019.

  1. nzrian

    nzrian renegade master

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    Isn't the high pressure tube a road bicycle tire, they run high pressures on the road bikes.

    maybe there is an aftermarket stem reinforcing kit available :hmmmmm
  2. Stephen

    Stephen Long timer Supporter

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    I think this is the crux of the biscuit. Most EU countries (or the whole EU, dunno) have pretty comprehensive regulations. Much less so here in USA, and even less enforcement. Problem for manufacturers comes from civil liability issues; anybody can sue anybody. So here in USA, it's legal and it works great.

    Dominant cause of tire failure at speed is heat, usually caused by under inflation. Tubes fail from heat long before tires. Lose the tube, you not only lose the weak link, you lose all the heat that tubes generate and the heat they fail to get rid of. So, tubliss should run cooler to start with, and tolerate higher temps as well. Add in the giant chunk of plastic and rubber in the middle that will at least kind of sort of a little bit stabilize the bead of a flatted tire, and you likely have a road wheel system that's a good bit safer than a tubed one. Maybe even better than a factory or sealed tubeless wheel.

    So that's pretty abstract. @renogeorge has put lots of highway miles on, as have many others here. Over in the LC8 forum, I recall somebody running Tubliss on a 950 Superenduro. Not a slow or dainty thing, that.
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  3. Fast1

    Fast1 Twisted Throttle

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    Traditional tubes/tires run at low pressure create heat due to the friction of the tube/tire and the tire sidewall flexing to some extent. I agree with your point.

    There have been a few times I've run 25 to 30 miles using tubliss with less than 10 psi F and 5 psi B at speeds to 75 mph without issue in Wyoming and Idaho. Tires did not seem to heat up that much.. not much different than running dirt at that speed.

    FWIW, I would rather have a tire deflate at speed on a desolate highway when at 70 mph vs that speed on a narrow forest road lined with trees posing as guard rails..
  4. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 51 years Supporter

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    I thought no, then thought about it more and yes, Tubliss is analogous to a tube-type high pressure bicycle road tire. But I suspect is unique to Tubliss the Tubliss system in dimensions, though I don't know for sure. The tube runs inside a sheath that is not so dissimilar to a road bicycle tire without tread and with two raised sealing rings on both sides. Maybe the original idea was a ding and a light bulb as someone pictured having a smaller tire inside a bigger tire?

    There is beauty to having all that unique Tubliss hardware way inside a heavy tire carcass, all cozy, down in a cavern, protected from puncturing things.

    There is this fear with Tubliss about losing the inner and suddenly losing the bead lock. But then you think well it's the same for a tube! And an advantage of Tubliss is there is at least something stuffing the area between the tire beads that may slow de beading and lessen catastrophic consequences.
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  5. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 51 years Supporter

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    I've seen guys running trials tires at low pressure on the road on their off-road bikes such that the carcass is all mashed out and there is a scary looking standing wave in the tires. As long as they don't maintain that too long things are fine.

    It's very interesting what happen inside a tire when it conform to terrain. This fellow put a GoPro on the rim of a car tire (see inside at 3 minutes):



    And this bloke has interesting ideas about heat generation in tires, tube type versus tubeless:



    Something I've wondered about is the role of speed in heat buildup. Will a tire spinning at high speed have forces acting on the carcass that are analogous to internal pressure? This may answer, or confuse:



    You can see tire expansion in the Russian example:



    This will certainly generate some heat!

  6. renogeorge

    renogeorge Let's ride!! Supporter

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    I don’t get the comment as to fear of losing bead lock with Tubliss. First of all, most flats will only involve the outer/low pressure chamber, leaving the inner chamber inflated and the pneumatic rim lock and mechanical rim lock both intact. Second even in the rare event of an inner bladder deflation, you still have the Tubliss mechanical rim lock. So how is the concern equal or greater than with a tube?

    And bicycle tubes work fine in a pinch. They are thinner and I wouldn’t run one indefinitely. FWIW
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  7. RideFreak

    RideFreak Torque Junky

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    Nice tip George, never considered a bicycle tube as a temporary replacement for a bladder.
  8. Fast1

    Fast1 Twisted Throttle

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    something to consider... spare Tubliss inner bladders are all of $12 / ea (however you would need two, a 21 and 18)

    @renogeorge

    What size bicycle inner tube (diameter/width) have you used that fits the 18" and the 21" wheel?

    Both my road bicycle and MTB have much larger wheel diameters (inside rim to inside rim) than the a typical dirt bike size.
    Ironically, they are both set up as tube less with orange sealant and TLR tires.
    .
  9. renogeorge

    renogeorge Let's ride!! Supporter

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    I found 18' tubes readily available in widths from 1.75-2.25. Don't remember which width I used. It was a temporary fix and is long gone. Never looked for something for the 21. May or may not be available. Tubes can cover a wide range of sizes beyond their specified size. For example, a regular 19" motorcycle tube works fine in both an 18 and a 21. Again we are talking field expedient options, not recommendations for normal/in the shop repairs. FWIW
  10. RideFreak

    RideFreak Torque Junky

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    I can tell you a 3.00x21 lasts about 60miles installed in a 150/70x17 :D
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  11. renogeorge

    renogeorge Let's ride!! Supporter

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    That’s why I switched from 21 to 19” for those times I want to carry a tube. On Baja trips, my non Tubliss buddies use whatever I bring. 19” will stretch for a 21 and has enough volume for any 18” I’m aware of. FWIW
  12. AbnormalWrench

    AbnormalWrench Adventurer

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    I have been running Tubliss on my 2019 KTM 690 and have really liked it. I did have a high pressure tube failure on the freeway that was quite terrifying, but I'm pretty sure that was because I over-torqued the rim lock. They don't give a spec for it and it never really "seats", so I kept wrenching longer than I should have, and I think I pinched it to the point that it popped. Since then, I use a light hand on the rim lock nuts and haven't had any other problems.

    Yes, I have to air up the tire and the tube fairly regularly, but I have a strong battery and always carry a mini-air compressor and it is worth it. Air up the tires for the highway before leaving...get to the dirt, lower them....get done playing, up them again. Love it. Last weekend had a front tire puncture on the trail, and 5 minutes later, was good to go. Was so nice how little fuss it took to deal with.
  13. renogeorge

    renogeorge Let's ride!! Supporter

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    I have learned to lube the you know what out of the black plastic block on the rim lock. I use Armor all as it stays slippery. Make damn sure high pressure valve stem is perfectly straight! And leak test both beads on any tire mount BEFORE mounting on bike. FWIW
  14. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 51 years Supporter

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    The rim lock I see as primary as liner lock and secondarily a tire-to-rim lock. Its black anodized aluminum base also serves as the passageway for air into the tire chamber, and that require the tube to jog around the aluminum part. At no point should the tube get pinched at the rim lock. If any of you have gotten a tube holed at the rim lock, many inches away from the tube's valve I'd believe that could happen. How overtightening can damage and to what isn't made clear in the instructions. The rim lock stop is apparently tire compression, not go solid with the rim. Maybe over tightening could pull the rim lock out of the plate that interfaces with the tire?

    Their instructions very clearly specify ONE rim lock nut tightening with no following retightening. I could see certain personalities of customers who are inclined to worry and continue to chase the nut down - just in case - and causing themselves problems. Their torque spec is based on initial resistance and subsequent compression of materials over time is factored in. I forego using torque wrenches on all except on head bolts. I should rethink this policy regarding a fresh Tubliss install. Now I get why they have the spec.

    NuTech has a better-than-most instruction sheet that comes with the kits, but there's some TMI which turns men's brains off. For example, CRITICAL Step 7 is on both sides of the sheet and written and illustrated differently. If it were my company I'd simplify the instructions. The instructions are primary oriented to soapy water. I get it since they don't sell their kits with sealer. But it's weird to follow all the steps THEN get to the 'see note if you will use a sealer' part and that note says soapy water mountings are not compatible sealers!

    Ack!

    What experienced and savvy riders do not run sealers in their tires, tube type, tubeless, or Tubliss? :dunno

    So I wondered. If I were to write text-only instructions, what would they be? Gosh that could get long, so I thought yeah, have the their instructions in hand for the photos and other details, but print something like the following to post by my tire station:

    TUBLISS INSTALLATION - SEALER METHOD - AFTER MODIFYING & TAPING THE RIM

    - Install the red liner onto the rim without the tube and mark with a black Sharpie marker where the tube stem needs to be to line up accurately with the stem hole in the rim. Repeat until there is no stem cocking

    - Check tube integrity on the rim, no tire, inflating to about 35 psi. The liner should stay firm and the pressure hold steady

    - Mount the tire using your preferred sealer as the lubricant. Brush on the sealer, liberally coating the rim beads, whole outside of the liner, the tire beads, and tire inside to slightly beyond where the liner will contact and compress against the tire

    - Fully install the tire, slowly and deliberately to avoid liner and tire inside-wall damage damage. The first side will bead go easily. The last third of the second side will not bead easily, especially with front tires. Work the tire beads as deeply as you can into the rim trough opposite where you are spooning the tire over the rim. The Tubliss liner will interfere with the beads sliding into the trough. A second set of hands to squeeze the tire beads together and force then in really helps!

    [Most tire spoons tips are un ideally long for Tubliss installs and especially for tire de mounting with Tubliss liners. Long spoon tips can compress or slide under the edge of the liner when you can directly see it. Modify at least two tire spoons by shortening and reshaping the tips to no longer than 3/8" (9.5mm) from the tip to center of the dished curve.]

    - Lubricate the high pressure valve core with oil and install and tighten it (neither ridiculously tight nor too loose)

    - Inflate the liner's tube to 120 psi, checking that the expansion of the liner outward by the tube evenly forces the tire bead against the rim. Checking for an even bead can be done by feel, or by inserting the wheel axle and spinning the tire, checking for visual wonkiness. If the bead has not evenly set, depressurize the tire and tube, bounce the tire on the floor, re pressurize and inspect

    - With an even bead set assured, inflate the tire to 20-25 psi. The check for leaking of the liner-to-tire interface by spraying soapy water along the bead-rim interfaces and the valve stems where they exit the rim. Bubbles during initial sealing and pressurization are to be expected, but a very good liner-to-tire interface will have the bubbling taper off and stopping within a few minutes.
    Depressurize, bounce, and re pressurize if bubbling persists.

    A tube damaged during installation will not maintain a high pressure and the seal will be lost. Do NOT ride with a compromised tube, even if the leak is somewhat slow as sudden pressure loss can occur upon the tube failing.

    If pressure loss at the liner/tire interface persists despite attempts to reset the system, demounting will be required to inspect the liner's parallel raised sealing lips as well as the inside of the tire. Tires have molded-in texturing on the inside, yet a Tubliss liners typically have no problem flattening to or conforming with even heavier texturing. Tires that are torn or deeply compressed at surface with liner, or a damaged liner at or near the parallel sealing ridges will usually fail at sealing. Balking at attaining a seal may simply require resetting to attain a seal.

    The recommendation to not mount used tires with new Tubliss installs comes from possible deep indentations left by rim locks run super tight. Mounting Tubliss with low-hours tires is often not a problem, but do a visual and feel inspection of the inside of the tire.

    [One should expect no pressure loss over time with the tire and some slow leak-down from the high pressure tube. A workable minimal seal with the tire is being able to ride all day with no significant pressure loss (especially considering the normal pressure rise with increased tire heat), but the tire could be flat after sitting over night. It then a judgement call whether or not to live with this particular type of leak - which can prove elusive in finding a solution by demounting and re trying an install, and may leak somehow even with sealer! Sometime a new tire is the only solution. Some tube-type tires will have minor leaks through the carcass, or acquire leaks through the fatigue of getting pounded. Another reason to use sealer. Larger through-carcass leaks can sometimes be spotted by sealer creating a visible wet spot.]

    - With a good seal assured, tighten the rim lock to 9 foot-pounds (12 Newton-meters). Tighten only once. Do not retorque afterward or overtightening with damage may occur

    - With a good seal assure and the rim lock tightened, deflate the tire, remove the valve stem, and pump in sealer from a well shaken container (front tire 4 ounces, and 8 ounces for the rear tire). Blow any residual sealer out of the stem threads. Oil the valve core and insert.

    - Re inflate the tire to the desired tire pressure. Check pressures before each ride, taking care especially to refresh the high pressure tube to 100-110 psi.
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  15. Fast1

    Fast1 Twisted Throttle

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    I haven't since I started using Tubliss with near 8000 miles of use on my FE501 and was told by the Tubliss regional rep to pump the inner to 120 psi with a PSI gauge that has at minimum of 150 psi pressure gauge.

    I assemble with Armor All and significantly soapy water, per instructional videos from Tubliss to the "T". NO sealants for me.

    Ensure each bead is sealed (test with soapy water) while pressured to 25-30 psi for at least 24 hours before airing down and balancing with a Marc Parnes balancer and spoke weights. Then find some dirt to roost with new knobs thru the gears for satisfaction.

    Do as you see fit for yourself.

    IMG_0231.JPG



    I don't use anything in the tube less Michelin Road 5 tires on my MV Agusta with near 9000 miles on the tires. Near requiring a new set now.

    As for my lightweight carbon fiber cross country MTB, TLR (tube less) Schwalbe tires and carbon fiber wheels, I use 3oz. of Orange Sealant per assembly.

    Those are my processes with the two wheeled toys.

    22550419_10212682184182489_1679308212779783369_o.jpg
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  16. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 51 years Supporter

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    Nice color coordination! Glad you have had so much success not using sealers. 'Savvy' in what machines get sealer is likely regionally influenced and I hadn't thought of that. I'm southwest central plains and mountain west, where there plenty of mesquite thorns and cactus needles.

    My rancher era, managing a square mile of land (and having up to 60 tires to attend to) steered me toward sealer prophylaxis, first with Slime, then Quadboss. The vast majority of my peer group of off roaders are also on board with sealers, so I assumed most savvy riders were. Could be a regional thing.

    After adopting sealer the required 'attention' and hassles with too many tires dropped to near zero.
  17. Fast1

    Fast1 Twisted Throttle

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  18. motobene

    motobene Motoing for 51 years Supporter

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    Sorry you had a bad experience with a sealer. I have no photos of pulling out a thorn and watching what happens. I simply went from frequent flats to almost none.

    I looked over your thread (again) and a detail stood out:
    Slimy.JPG
    !TIRE SENSOR SAFE

    I've had Quadboss plug up TPMS tire sensors, so I've learned to avoid trying to pump it through TPMS modules. I've had Slime product about 8 years ago plug up a Schrader valve with what appeared to be short fiber staple. I've had unshaken Quadboss plug its own dispenser pump.

    Perhaps 'tire sensor safe' is positive marketing spin on reduced clotting factor?

    Your challenge, thank you, made me examine Quadboss more carefully. I didn't have 'tire sensor safe' Slime to look at, but spreading some Quadboss out on white paper in strong light, I found my assumption that Quadboss carrier contains fiber to either be untrue or the short fiber staple is too short to see without magnification.

    The clotting factor for at least my present gallon of Quadboss is tiny bits of rubber chop. The largest of the chunks was about 1mm. The majority were smaller. Their appearance is jagged edged similar to removing rubber from a solid chunk by grinding or wire wheel.

    Rubber bits in a creamy/gelatinous-like carrier as the primary clotting factor.
  19. AbnormalWrench

    AbnormalWrench Adventurer

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    I'm reluctant to use slime. Having worked at bike shops in the past, nothing more annoying than dealing with slime or fix-a-flat when doing a tire. I'd rather air up my tires daily, personally.
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  20. Wei Feng

    Wei Feng Iron Man

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    Very informative thread