Tuneboy for 990?

Discussion in 'Crazy-Awesome almost Dakar racers (950/990cc)' started by cyborg, Apr 5, 2008.

  1. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    That's good. Help people understand this stuff. I don't know any production vehicle that would supply a wide-band stock just because of the $$ difference. If our narrow bands are accurate there good enough. The fuel milage issue is at stoich/part throttle(less than 20%). What they run at wide open throttle has little to do with mpg just hp. KTM surely didn't care how accurate they're at WOT settings as my stock map was 11.8/1. Very safe, but not good for hp.
    I am also wondering about the ignition timing. I don't have much experience when it comes to timing at part throttle settings. KTM maps run alot of tim ing in the area of 50+ degrees at part throttle settings. At some points in the 3-4K range under 20% throttle there is 48-52 degrees of timing. I'm wondering if this could be changed to more fuel and less timing to smooth the throttle out.
  2. cyborg

    cyborg Potius Sero Quam Numquam

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    Saw this post on EFI and O2 sensors on another forum, from a factory race mechanic.

    "O² sensors on FI bikes that do have them are not meant to sense A/F values for the ECU to calculate fine adjustments to the fuel map. Those OEM sensors are not the wide band type used for FI tuning and are only meant to protect the Cat converter from overheating."

    ??
  3. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    This is basically true of the LC8 engines also. The lambda probes are there to monitor the exhaust to keep the AFR as close to 14.7:1 as possible to minimize harmful emissions. They play no part in providing the ECU with specific AFR's for performance tuning.
  4. K2m

    K2m ....58....

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    Legislators don't worry about emitions during the small amount of time in hard acceleration, but manufactures worry about destroying engines.

    Narrow bands just wobble around stoich during cruising, they say "I'm rich," "I'm lean".
    Consider this.... If the SAS system allows air to enter the exhaust during cruse (to help oxidation) the injectors will have to pump more fuel to maintain stoich at the cat. This will badly effect fuel consumption as we spend most of our time cruising in traffic. I speculate of course as I do not own a 990.

    By my experience, with tuning Haltech systems, over the last 14 years on cars, this sounds correct. http://www.haltech.com/

    Basically.... as you apply load to the engine you decrease ignition timing to avoid detonation. You also increase your fuel to air ratio.

    When you are running light loads you improve your fuel consumption by running an advanced spark (50deg BTDC) and you can run AFRs around 16 to 18 :1..... at least I can without Cats....

    I still recon that the throttle jerk is due to the way butterfly valves, used as a throttle control, work. As you begin to open them you get a big rush of air, (slides are more progressive)the TPS is to small to meter correctly when this happens, and our motors in this state of tune are very sensitive to throttle input. I think you make a good point relating to ignition and AFR at these RPM. It may be worth trying to smooth it out. I don't know how much control you have over these maps. But worth a try. Just be sure you can return to your original settings.
  5. cpmodem

    cpmodem Orange Caveman

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    On the 990, the SAS only operates during warm up (open loop mode). It shuts off as soon as the lambda probes are up to temp and the ECU goes into closed loop.
    Just sayin'
  6. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    I wondered about that. Never saw it change the a/f on my bike while riding when I had it on. I did see the egt's get in the 1600+:huh range at idle on warm-up gettin that cat fired up.
  7. Barleymo

    Barleymo n00b

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    I have a standard 06 SuperDuke, Is it possible to put the 07 standard mapping onto the 06 model as i have been told that the mapping has been tweaked for smoother running, or does anyone know where there are some tweaked/tuned maps. Oh its a uk spec model as well.

    Thanks guys
  8. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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  9. Barleymo

    Barleymo n00b

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    Thanks tahoeacr<SCRIPT type=text/javascript> vbmenu_register("postmenu_8401662", true); </SCRIPT> will have a look.
  10. Katoom119

    Katoom119 Mmmm....Orange Kool-aid

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    Finally got the Tuneboy software loaded up and the email fired off to Oz for my key. My question is this: Is remapping with Tuneboy like the Dynojet software (roughly)? I've got experience with making my own adjustments, access to a dyno with an exhaust gas analyzer, and the owner of the dyno cuts me a damn good price on time. So is it just a simple thing of plugging in different values until you get your desired outcome?

    My bike is lean up until about 4200 RPM which I've been told is <6% TPS. If I just go in and richen this up, what values do I want? 12.2 A/F for response or 14.7 for MPG? My initial thought was to have it at 12.2 and slowly taper it off to 14.7 at around 3800 - 4200 for fuel mileage, after which take it back to the desired 12.8-13.0 for WOT.

    If this makes any sense, then hooray! as it's 1:30 en la manana. :lol3
  11. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    If your dyno guy has the dynojet tuning center link or whatever the heck they call it, it will work with Tuneboy. At least that is what Tuneboy claims. Make sure if you do seperate maps per cylinder that you put the wide-band in the header. You will need to weld seperate bungs on for this. The first time I did mine the wide-band was reading good(in the tail pipe) but the maps were not changing correctly. I have egt gauges in both cylinders and they went 700+ degrees off of each other. Normal is 50 degrees cooler in front.
  12. Slimie

    Slimie Long timer

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    I've just caught up with this thread, cracking effort everyone. Thank you.

    I'm an FI numpty so please be gentle with me but I've a little question... when the Tuneboy alters the fuelling to give better mileage per gallon will this improve the feel at the throttle?

    By which I mean iron out that snatchy on/off problem we all seem to be affected by? I was particularly aware of it today on some really slimy muddy roads and would love a true cure.

    Thanks again

    Cheers

    -Simon
  13. Katoom119

    Katoom119 Mmmm....Orange Kool-aid

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    Yeah, if it's just a fueling issue like mine is. Basically if you think of the FI system as being a carb, and the Tuneboy as jets, then all you're doing is rejetting the carb, if that helps.

    The only thing different is you can have better MPG at the RPM when you cruise mostly and good throttle response everywhere else. This is done by changing the A/F ratio. If you have access to a dyno with an exhaust gas analyzer you can put this on, hook up the Tuneboy software, and make changes on the fly that should show results in the A/F ratio on the dyno screen.
  14. Slimie

    Slimie Long timer

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    Thanks for clearing that up.

    -Simon
  15. hilslamer

    hilslamer 2XRedheadedstepchild

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    I guess I see the "snatchiness" issue as a deceleration-condition(regardless of throttle setting, but most exxagerated at low RPM near idle) ignition timing issue, as much as anything. I think there is too much advance in a decellarative condition, something the modern 4 stroke motocross bikes are careful to tune closely(EFI or not) to prevent/avoid excessive engine braking under any condition where the throttle is closed far enough for it to occur as a result of airflow restriction. They literally retard timing at a given throttle setting relative to engine RPM so that engine braking is only so hard, and never harder.

    The new RC8 does the same thing, as well as adapting this concept further during downshifts to simulate the effects of a "slipper" clutch. I can safely say that I've ridden it, and it works perfectly - it has all the response of the EFI without all the snatchiness of the 990 ADV. No joke, it is really good. Perhaps this is complemented by the fact that the cams and tuning are such that it actually makes less torque at low RPM, in trade for a LOT more up high of course, but it's still night and day better at any RPM for in-and-out of the throttle behaviour. No joke.

    Tuneboy does not allow you to adjust this, no?

    Does anythign allow you to tune timing like this on a 3D map? Short of MoTec?
  16. Sheep Shagger

    Sheep Shagger Show me your fleece

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    TuneBoy (TuneEdit) program allows you to do this on a Triumph ECU, you can advance / retard the ignition (and fuel trim) from a given Throttle Position & RPM.
    But there are a lot of differences between what can be done on a Triumph ECU and KTM, so I can't say for sure if you can do this with KTM.
  17. hilslamer

    hilslamer 2XRedheadedstepchild

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    Have you had a chance to play with it? Is this hypothesis right? Even in the case of the Triumph? How radical a change is it/how wide is the spectrum of adjustment?

    Good info!
  18. tahoeacr

    tahoeacr Long timer

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    Yes, Tuneboy allows you to change ignition timing. You can change it per cylinder or a map that trims both at the same time. I haven't even gone there yet. Added a knock sensor and I'm watching it first for a 1K miles. I have got rid of the notch just by fine tuning fuel. The SD's run less timing than the Adventures at high rpm but the same map down low.

    There is a map that is MAP vs RPM at less than 6% TPS. This I think would smooth the throttle if someone wanted to run real rich for throttle response.

    Next week I'll be doing some tuning for a SM team running the new Honda 450's. I'll check out what you say and see if I can apply that to the 990.
  19. Sheep Shagger

    Sheep Shagger Show me your fleece

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    With my Triumph's it made a huge difference, you are 100% accurate. My first FI triumph in 1997 had identical issues to the KTM's, but it bothered me a lot more. (I seem to remember it was far worse than the 990). But yes, engine braking and jerky throttle snap back open was vastly effected by playing with this. Triumph never overcame this issue even with their own constantly updated maps, only when Tuneboy had this option could you really dial it out.
    But in playing with mine and other peoples maps, it does seem to be very bike specific what worked on one made the other worse. (identical bikes in model#). Or maybe it's just rider preferance.
  20. hilslamer

    hilslamer 2XRedheadedstepchild

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    IME, "damping" the too-aggressive decel/throttle-rollout ignition timing by saturating the fueling mixture momentarily is a very crude "bandaid," no condescendence meant, really. If you've solved it that's fantastic, it's just that it's a wasteful way of solving it(probably not a significant impact to MPG, but still...). It also ONLY works at low throttle settings - we want to solve this snatchiness across the range, so that when you roll in, rev 'er up to 9k RPM and then back out to 7k for a bend in the trail(where to "back out" to 7k you're still way above 6% open...), you have a lot more precision control during the 2k RPM decel and you're less likely to break the rear wheel loose on decel unless due to how abruptly it jumps to the deceleration advance curve when you really roll out of it hard and mean to.

    The decel behavior should be as or more predictable than a carbureted 950 motor: the CV slides are literally hanging open when you shut the butterflys partially and doing exactly what you describe, leaving the mixture momentarily rich and "damping" the aggressive decel timing curve cue to the ECU via a closing throttle movement.



    This is exactly right - anyone that got used to any of the early TPS-less, Keihin FCR-equipped 4T MX and offroad bikes that came out in the late 90's had a love-hate relationship with the decel behavior or "engine braking" "compression braking" whatever you called it, and after playing with a million carb settings I came to the conclusion that it was the fixed ignition curves that were the problem - i.e., a fixed advace setting for a given RPM whether decelerating or accelerating. The lack of a TPS then left the ECU out of the loop as far as engine conditions and single advance curves were the norm(as they were for eternity previous, too).

    Changing static timing via moving the pulser coil could make a lot more power but make the engine braking a lot worse, particularly at low RPM where advance was actually relatively aggressive for lown engine speed and large bore diameter/short stroke motors. These make ignition timing at lower revs very critical and just a little change makes for a lot of difference at low RMP and especially on decel....

    So there we have it: if we can figure out how to change this setting, this(perhaps in combination with a little of the fueling-saturation) should solve a lot of the snatchiness during on-off-on-off throttling situations.


    PS feel free to flame me if I'm wrong on any of these fronts, I have some experience but am by no means a pro...