Using any GSW Special Tools?

Discussion in 'GS Boxers' started by marchyman, Nov 25, 2013.

  1. sailnbike

    sailnbike Been here awhile

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    I purchased the tools and need to know how much to tighten the tensioner tool. Could you let me know? Thanks
  2. Beecher Snipes

    Beecher Snipes Fool

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    Snug it down, 10 nut as I remember but the correct snug is 3 clicks. Will be obvious when you try it. Remember the seal ring on the access plug is different from the one on the TDC plug. One is copper the other aluminum.
  3. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    Big shout of thanks to gr8ridn for explaining the tools to do the timing on a WetHead! And I would have never known my timing was off or what to do about it without you and your great posts and pictures.

    Another big shout of thanks to Jim Baden And JVB Productions. I do not know if without a tech session, and seeing this in person if I would have ever done this. The DVD was clear and concise and was a great reference and was great for a visual leaner like myself. How about a coolant one as the clock is ticking. When I asked my dealer about service on it he said "oh, it is lifetime".

    As to the tools they are very nice but you pay for it. Knowing how to use them is very important and one must do a bit of reading to get all the information gathered you need. Researching for the torque specs of various things is worth beforehand to have ready when you need them.

    This was my 12K a bit early 11,600 on a 15 RT. I had previously done the brake flush using the GS-911, and installed speed bleeders in all three calipers. Three different sizes I might add! I had done the air filter when I was in doing some wiring and had to remove Tupperware almost to the filter and said bag it I will do it then. About 10,500 miles.

    Nothing new under the sun for the valves. Jim's tip on bending the feeler in a arch is an important tip. It works very nice giving you reliable readings.

    Left Intake 13 13 Exhaust 37 37 Tight Right Intake 14 14 Exhaust 36 37

    As to the timing, it was off. A lot IMHO on the Left, and not so much on the Right. But both were off.

    [​IMG]

    I used the tools as described by gr8ridn and it all worked flawlessly! The cam chain tension tool is without a doubt one of the coolest tools I ever used! 3 Clicks you are there just too cool. The TDC tool is pretty sporty also but as I said you do pay for the privilege to lay hands on these tools. Also I thought I might lend them out so others could use them but I have shut that down. Only because if you do not understand them or ham fist them I think there is the potential to break them. At the very least loose parts of them as the cam chain tension tool is 3 pieces alone. I will however help someone in my garage. If someone knows how to check valves and can turn their own wrench I would share my tools with them. Make sure you have a 3/8" torque in the right ranges to cover the ranges you work with here. From like 10 Nm for the valve cover bolts to 65 Nm for the cam gear bolts. I did not, I do now. The 16MM crows foot works well on those cam gear bolts.

    Only other thing I did was install Iridium Plugs.

    [​IMG]

    It was a good day of turning wrenches today! I had a long good day learning a bunch of stuff and it was way cool.
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  4. Beecher Snipes

    Beecher Snipes Fool

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    Cam timing. That is my point exactly. Most of the time the valves are fine. But quite often the cam timing is off. The only way to really check it is to lock the crank at TDC and stretch the cam chain with the tensioner then measure with the tool. Just putting a straight edge on the cam ends tells you nothing. If they are flat and parallel are you at TDC, is the cam in the correct relationship to the crank? The long way is the short way. And, amazingly your bike will run better, start quicker and you go duh!
  5. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    In my mind they go hand in hand.

    I was lucky and the Service Manager gave me a set of their DVD Repair Manual as he had gotten a new set. Now mine does not get updated over the internet but it is fine. It has the hours for services and a whole lot of stuff I do not use including a bunch of bike models.

    I had 4 Sources on this.

    Thin information here, the Haynes, the BMW DVD for RT's and the above mentioned DVD's.

    The dealer acquired DVD shows this entire process with every too and how to do it. I just never looked as I would have never thought I would need to check, let alone set my timing.

    I would say that this is the procedure EVERY dealer should be using to check valves and set timing. I will bet that not many if ANY are doing this on valve inspections on guys bikes for service. And that is why I get pissed at dealers. They charge you top dollar but give you half service.

    Guys need to start telling the dealer that this is the way BMW says to do valve and timing checks. Dealers who guys support should be doing it this way.

    I would say the average guy has no clue about this and is paying for part of a valve check not the correct and true way to check valves.

    Checking valves using JVB Productions DVD is fine no issues. The area of the cam lobe is forgiving enough that timing being off does not really affect the valve readings. And that is my point at least. If your dealer or you do not go through a timing check you will never know about timing. You might fuss over vibes or rough idle, but all in all unless you have timing set you will never know and just say well that is the character of the Boxer motor.

    I ran the bike on the center stand and ran up through the gears and down quite a bit to get the oil hot to change and the to warm the FD fluid a little to drain.

    Just from that what I heard was a EVEN amount of noise on each side of the bike. It did not sound that way before. The bike just made a bit of noise and since my first Boxer I accepted that. Walking from each side of the bike it sounds like the noise is the same on either side now. I even held the stethoscope on each cove to make sure I was hearing right.

    With the valves being so close to each other on each side timing would be the only reason for more noise or uneven sound levels from each side it really has to be the reason for it.

    My advice is hold your dealers hand over the flame, make him check your valves AND timing. It is a called out procedure with a prescribed methodology that needs done.
  6. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    Going to get some more data. Going to check a GSW on Monday and a 16 RT later in the week. We will see how widespread this issue may be. Interesting stuff.
  7. Emoto

    Emoto Sure, why not?

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    How is checking and adjusting the cam timing an "issue"? I have a 2013 wethead GS (first year wethead) and performing the check/adjustment task has been part of routine maintenance from the beginning. Or, did you mean something else that I am not understanding?
  8. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid! Supporter

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    Just curious. Since you first calibrated the timing on the cams, have you needed to do it again?
  9. Emoto

    Emoto Sure, why not?

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    My cam timing has been correct from the start. I did have to replace a shim or two (don't have my notebook in front of me) to get valve clearances off the edge and into the middle of the range on one cylinder, but when checked using the BMW special tools, the cam timing has never been off. If I manage to get some riding time this year, I may be at the next interval for checking. Will post back if adjustment is required.
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  10. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    I find it an issue in the sense that too many bikes are out of time and people will never know. I too find it hard to believe that the majority of people riding bikes do not get on forums perhaps as we do so they are not aware enough to ask for a dealer to check at 12K.

    And here is one more data point to cam timing being a issue that should not be.

    '16 GSW going in for 12K at 12,000 miles on the dot. Has been documented on the 12K service ticket to have cam timing done.

    We know it needs done without a doubt.

    Here is the right:

    [​IMG]

    Interesting enough his appears to be off the opposite of what mine were. My left was way out, his right is way out as the above picture shows.

    Here is his left:
    [​IMG]

    As you see it is close. Mine was off or out of time the exact same way, just opposite cylinders. I like this picture of looking into the left cylinder.

    [​IMG]

    And while we are looking that cam shaft sensor on the end of the cam has a line mark on it. According to the Factory Procedure I read it is supposed to be lined up with the groove along the side of the sensor pick up. I can tell you this is a 1/4" off that mark. :

    [​IMG]

    So next is a 16 RT fresh out of the 12K Service. Now I can not say for sure it was asked for explicitly but It was said to do all that is required for the 12K. We will see if a dealer considers checking cam timing in the 12K. And we are going to see if when explicitly asked and told to do and write it up on the ticket, if they do it. I sure hope so as my faith would be a little restored in dealer service.

    I swear the truth as it was seen today.

    YMMV
  11. Emoto

    Emoto Sure, why not?

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    Regarding your statements I put into bold underline:

    1. What do you mean should not be? It is a routine maintenance task to check and adjust cam timing if out. This is no different than any other maintenance task. I don't understand your statement.

    2. Unless they've changed it, the BMW Factory Service Manual REQUIRES cam timing to be checked/adjusted at 12k. Any dealer ignoring that should be dealt with harshly, IMHO. A call to BMW would also be in order, IMHO. It certainly is not terribly difficult to do.
  12. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    Wow.

    As I was schooled, how would a chain stretching make two cam shafts connected with three gears, off from each other? Look at the pictures above how are the cam shaft out of alignment with each other? The only way that could be is if the cam gear slipped on the end of the cam shafts. If those bolts loosened enough for the gears to spin on the cam shaft then they should be loose when I go back in to adjust them. Well the motor should have blown apart shortly after the cam shaft went out of time if they could/did slip.

    This is not cam chain stretch. This is cams coming off the factory line out of time. No way they should be making it through QC! So we/I/Dealer should not be putting them back in, they should be there from the factory.


    Never said it was terribly difficult to do. Less so when you are in for valve check anyway.

    Since you are saying they should and ARE being checked every 12K by dealers what is your feedback from them? After they put them in at 12K do they stay in? Or do they need adjusted every 12K?

    And I hope you do not believe because it says so in a Service Procedure that ALL dealers do it that way. I know what it says but 90% of other people INCLUDING a dealer does not.
  13. Idahocharley

    Idahocharley Been here awhile

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    LAFS - So the cam shaft sensor was off by 1/4 of an inch.... did you correct that? If so how?...does the sensor just clamp onto the end of the cam or is it splined or???? The ignition timing being off a few degrees to me is almost more important than the cam timing being off a couple of degrees (I'm running a remapped ECU)
  14. marchyman

    marchyman barely informed Supporter

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    Loosen screw, rotate unit until the marks are in alignment, tighten screw.

    In practice the cam sensor trigger has to be removed to get at the bottom cam nut. When re-installing make sure the marks are in alignment.

    [​IMG]

    And the alignment marks on sensor and sensor trigger.

    [​IMG]

    My bike is a '13. Might be different on newer bikes.
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  15. Idahocharley

    Idahocharley Been here awhile

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    Thanks for the information and pictures - guess I'll be taking a look after riding season.....
  16. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    I will correct the timing and the cam sensor after the 12K is done by the dealer as we anticipate them not checking or adjusting the timing at all.

    I am not sure how specific that needs to be? It may just need to be ball park. But I look a that one and that seems correct now as the DVD says cutout.
  17. marchyman

    marchyman barely informed Supporter

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    #3 in the diagram you posted shows the line on the cam sensor trigger and what looks like a notch on the body of the cam position sensor. Notice that the bottom edge of the notch is darker in the diagram. That's shows that the line on the trigger needs to align with the bottom of the notch. It looks slightly off in my picture because of the camera angle. I tried to get it as exact as I could.
  18. LAFS

    LAFS Long timer

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    Yes that is my problem in this. If you look at the stationary part it has a indent cut the whole length in one area. Then when I look at your picture which is very good by the way I see a small area that is really cut out but is at the bottom area and does not run the entire length of the stand off part or stationary part. I am not sure which to use as the alignment. The indent that runs the entire length or the small cut out further to the front?

    I will say the GS yesterday it was in fact set to the one further front that does not run the whole length.

    Appreciate the discussion and thought processes.
  19. Emoto

    Emoto Sure, why not?

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    You make a good point about them being connected by gears. :deal. I think the question now becomes: "has anyone who had to adjust their cam timing ever had to adjust it a second time?" That would tell us something.

    How could I possible have any "feedback from dealers"? I am just a private individual. :scratch

    As to whether a shop performs the maintenance as detailed in the svc manual, I think your claim of "90% do not" may be the case for DIYers, but not for franchised BMW dealers. I think most of them are pretty good and NOT dishonest.
  20. JimVonBaden

    JimVonBaden "Cool" Aid! Supporter

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    That was the question I was asking...