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Versys-X 400 speculations thread

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by PaD, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    I'm not sure why you're milling over it; there are several bikes out there which fill the bill. If you don't want CRF because of power then look at SWM Superdual, X-Country, Husqvarna Terra or perhaps Fantic Caballero which we sadly won't see in US. Or wait when 890 ADV comes out and buy used 790 Adventure that bike feels very light. 390 ADV is out and it would be on my list if I were looking for another bike.
  2. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    ^ Perhaps I forgot to mention that I want a modern engine (that 650 is about 20 years old), not KTM, and not Chinese (anymore - filthy bastards). Basically a brand new Japanese, please.
  3. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    That engine 652 Rotax is 30yo way younger than boxer in your GS.. and it's fine though the SWM 600cc ex-husky mill is smoother at 130kmh.

    What is Chinese bike? One made in China? made with Chinese parts? Mainland or Taiwan? If early then it will exclude 790 ADV 2nd year up; all others are made outside of China. If containing Chinese parts then it would be next to impossible to find one.

    With regards to blaming for covid19 the signs of this coming were around since at least 2004; whose fault that people responsible for getting prepared didn't do squat for 16 years?
    Dutch idiot and Ken in Regina like this.
  4. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    IMO There is little point in comparing the 390 with the CRF. ....2 complete different things.

    upload_2020-4-17_17-43-59.png


    - the Honda is a true dual adventure capable bike and the ktm doesn't look that is for that role.
    - both will need some upgrades for serious use with the KTM being the largest investment because one will need spoke wheels and
    those are expensive. Suspension tuning in the CRF is possible just with thicker oil and/or springs that is a fraction of the cost to get it ready.
    - The 2 level seat of the KTM is great for the road but not so good off road where the flat seat is the way to go. Many Long distance riders
    will also tell you the flat seat is great for long distance in order to change positions. the issue wit the CRF is that is too narrow for long
    adventure and larger folks but there is an inexpensive seat concepts update.
    - Another huge differentiator is the engine. you have the extra power of the KTM vs the demonstrated legendary reliability of the CRF.
    The KTM engines (made in india or not) they are not the top choices when it comes to easy servicing and worry free dependability.
    The CRF is low on power but it is quite easy and inexpensive to unrestricted the bike with nothing but a new muffler or modification and
    a ECU update as well a mod to the box to help her breathe. Those simple upgrades put the CRF in the same power as the yamaha WRF
    with 29 to 30hp that is not going to be pushed to that but the peppy response is what people feel the most. In any case more than
    enough power that many people would need to go anywhere in the world.
    - They both can use tank upgrades for long distance travel but not 100% necessary. The CRF aftermarket is huge though.
    - The CRF is a very well tested engine and bike. The KTM still needs to show it can pass the test of time.
    - CRF can be found for $5K from 2018 and 2019 models that is the same bike as they rotate stock. The KTM is at least 1.5K extra
    rolling out the store.

    IMO the biggest advantages of the VX300 (And potentially a VX400 even better) are:
    A) Spoke wheels from factory (an expensive add on)
    B) Kawa engine reliability and smoothness
    C) Large tank

    I cannot understand why anyone will release a light adventure bike w.o spoke wheels. I mean the whole idea of a light bike is to be more effective off road and we know
    that cast wheels will not survive like it happens to most bikes. I am not talking about "going down grandpas cabin driveway" but real adv. work.
    Hamamelis likes this.
  5. Ken in Regina

    Ken in Regina Long timer Supporter

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    I'll trade my VX300 spoked wheels to someone for cast in a heartbeat!

    ...ken...
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  6. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    I guess that works for people who do get much off-road.
    But why, if you don't mind me asking, because of the tubeless?
  7. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    ...even if one says, nah, I don't do trails or jumps but one goes into those back roads that might be in good shape but
    most are not really that great. Cast wheels cannot manage pot holes that well neither.

    I carry 1/2 dozen replacement spokes and a heavy duty inner tube even it is for a tubeless tire. But certain cast
    fractures are unrepeatable and leave you stranded where you stand.


    Brand new GS...
    https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...-wheels-can-t-really-take-potholes-83564.html

    upload_2020-4-17_19-49-8.png

    another one..

    upload_2020-4-17_19-50-46.png
  8. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    There are $800 wheels coming for 390 ADV which would bring price to $6200+800=7000. Do you think $7000-5600=1400 will bring CRF up to 40hp? Or $7000-5400=1600 will bring Versys X suspension to USD forks and 7" of travel?

    This is not including switchable ABS, TFT dash with phone GPS integration, traction control and drive-by-wire. Yes 390 ADV doesn't look dual sport; but it is better than just another soft roadie. It's good enough look at press lunch video:
    Dutch idiot likes this.
  9. The_Precious_Juice

    The_Precious_Juice 2019 DL650XT Touring

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    Honda Rally ABS vs KTM 390 is intriguing, but like 11motos posted they really do not compete against each other.

    Price is danger close in the USA. Just $50!. The last ditch effort for the Honda to keep up is with the switchable rear ABS.
    After that the KTM, just massacres the 250.

    Even when the R model comes out the KTM will be totally different. The suspension will be night and day.
    In general it would be like comparing a DR200 to a DR650. But with those two bikes it's 88lbs separating. It should be about 40lbs with the 250 and 390.

    As posted in the 255cc-500cc thread, Honda will need the Honda Rebel 286cc and lots of upgrades with the price staying the same to be competitive.

    Only the 399cc from Kawi can match the KTM's might.

    I feel like KTM really has been a game changer that will cause Japan to put up or shut up for 2021. The bikes that will come out in 2021 have been 70% ready for years. They just have not been motivated to unleash them cause they were making money with the 80s and 90s bikes, and making lots of money with heavier ADV bikes.

    :lurk
  10. Ken in Regina

    Ken in Regina Long timer Supporter

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    Lots of reasons but, yes, tubeless is a big one. Wheel maintenance is at least three more: keeping spokes tightened, wheel round, and wheel straight. And let's not forget the pain in the ass to clean, especially the rear wheel.

    Your pictures in the next post didn't scare me, if that was the intent. I've ridden too many miles/hours off pavement on cast wheels on a heavier, more powerful bike than the VX300 (F650GS twin). So I know that the pictures you showed are the outliers ... remarkable because they're ugly/scary. And not terribly common.

    Anyone who plans on riding the way it took to smash those wheels up like that should certainly consider different wheels. But anything short of that, which is almost everything most moderately sane people will likely do on a typical unmodified ADV bike, won't have those problems.

    Question: were any of those pictures yours? :lift

    ...ken...
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  11. dirtdreamer50

    dirtdreamer50 long time rider

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    A bit off X subject, but a Ninja 400 on the track. Does show the engine's capability. tp

    The_Precious_Juice likes this.
  12. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    Those are pics posted here on the forum. 1 BMW GS failing the very same week it was bought. A total fiasco.
    I agree for easy tubeless and easier maintenance cast wheels are ok but for adventure like
    the bikes we see going all over in long trips the spokes are a must.
    One can ride to accommodate but eventually running in rough roads the cast wheels
    will give trouble. We don't see many all terrain adventure bikes w/o spokes for that reason.
  13. Hamamelis

    Hamamelis Inmate

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    It's funny, 11motos said there's no point in comparison but then made a perfect list of every reason I'm preferring to stick with the CRF Rally I already own

    That said, they are certainly two rather different bikes and the KTM does have its perks - that ~35-40 hp figure is nothing to sneeze at, and a good suspension is a heck of a thing on a sub-$7k bike

    Honestly, given I mostly commute and do light ADV touring, and see far more urban potholed roads than forest roads (albeit potholes that could murder a cast wheel), I'd be well served by any of this class of bike. For my specific needs I do like the minimalism and modest weight of the CRF, though.
    Ken in Regina likes this.
  14. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    Both cast tubeless and tubed spoke have pro and cons. Yes cast is much harder to fix when you bend rim; on other hand good luck trying to fix flat on tubed wheel when you have something like K60, MotoZ or Mitas Dakars.. and you have to carry spare tubes which add weight. 2-4lbs per tube 10-15lbs total.
  15. dancingweasel

    dancingweasel Virtual Tourist

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    I've been riding for many many years, and have hit the odd pot hole now and then, and had quite a few punctures, but have never bent a rim. For me tubeless is deffo the way to go.
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  16. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    I have bent cast rim before; IIRC it had 18psi; shit happens. People who worry about damaging rims run ultra low pressure which they would have problem regardless with tubes; snake bite or spinning and cutting valve off without rimlocks.
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  17. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    Hi Ken,
    As you might know there are tubules kits for spoke wheels. I have seen them done with quality 100% silicone and duck tape. Still I would carry a heavy duty inner tube.
    Some folks might find the cast wheels adequate but when it comes to dirt bikes, cross, trials, enduro, dual sport, adv. the spoke wheels is the best solution.
    During motorcycle history manufacturers have tried aluminum cast and billets, polymer, carbon fiber, etc... and in the end they stuck to the spoke wheels because
    they are the best solution for the task at hand.
    If they were not the best for those roles then all those above bikes would use other system for competition and everything else but, the reality is that they don't.
    We all also know that there is hardly a perfect adv bike because adventure means different things for different people so tuning and preparation is going to be a given.
    Also regarding the 390 is too early to say if it is a good bike or not regardless of what 3rd party early reviews and infomercials say.
    The good thing is that we will have something new to choose from and this will push the light adv. bike portfolio that IMO is the way to go.
    Bullwinkle likes this.
  18. Ken in Regina

    Ken in Regina Long timer Supporter

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    "Some folks might find the cast wheels adequate but when it comes to dirt bikes, cross, trials, enduro, dual sport, adv. the spoke wheels is the best solution.

    But the Kawasaki Versys-X 300 is none of those except mild ADV. It's not rocket science to look at it, sit on it for a couple of minutes, and take it for a short ride around the parking lot to figure that out. Nobody is trying to pull a fast one here. It is what it is, and it's immediately obvious what it is. And is not.

    Yes, if someone wants to modify their VX300 to be more like, and ride it more like, most of those, switching to spoked wheels might be another thing to add to their shopping list of all of the many things they'll need to buy to transform the bike. But for those of us who generally love the bike as it is and choose to ride it within its rather obvious design envelope, cast wheels would be just as safe and a heckuva lot more convenient. Not to mention better looking. :chace

    "We all also know that there is hardly a perfect adv bike because adventure means different things for different people so tuning and preparation is going to be a given."

    Precisely.

    ...ken...
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  19. twaldron

    twaldron Dudeman

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    I have other bikes for the dirt, but I love the silver spoked wheels on my gray Vx . If they don’t come out with a Vx400, I’ll make them tubeless. Glad they didn’t go with cast.
    The_Precious_Juice likes this.
  20. Fuzzy74

    Fuzzy74 Been here awhile

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    So what is the design concept where a ktm wheel has 12 spikes and Versys x 3 times as many?