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Versys-X 400 speculations thread

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by PaD, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    No, no, no - look it up - 10th century Italy. I need to get back on topic because I'm getting a bit stressed by you North Americans' view of history and I'll probably say something offensive soon.

    So, what do we think about the possibility of the Japanese coming up with 45-55hp ADV any time soon? Kawasaki owe us one for sure, ditto Suzuki.
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  2. Ken in Regina

    Ken in Regina Long timer Supporter

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    What displacement would that most likely be? 500cc - ish?

    If they could keep that closer to the weight of the VX300 rather than the 650 I would certainly be a candidate. Perhaps that's the next bit for speculation: is the fictional VX400 more likely to be a 500?

    Nice move to bring us back! And it's okay to be offensive to we New Worlders. We've got centuries of practice ignoring your disdain. :*sip*

    ...ken...
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  3. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    It's got to be less that 400lbs/180kg.
  4. ag_streak

    ag_streak Tiene Ruta Cuarenta? Supporter

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    Yay! We're finally talking about motorcycles again! :wings
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  5. Hamamelis

    Hamamelis Inmate

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    Just in case it hasn't been said in a while, here's a reminder that the CB500X in Europe and America is a 400X in Asian markets, much like the Honda 300s here are all 250s there (except the CRF250L family, which is the same in both markets)

    The CB500X could potentially be described as overbuilt, with a motor that's known to be extremely reliable, fuel range that could make a GS blush, and a frame/subframe that can support hefty loads, so part of the question is, to get from 200kg/440ish lbs to <180kg/<400 lbs wet weight, what compromises do we choose?
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  6. Ken in Regina

    Ken in Regina Long timer Supporter

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    That's easy; whatever differences there are between the Versys-X 300 and the CB500X. I'm not sure they're actually compromises because I don't know that we would give up much, if anything.

    I'm not intimately familiar with the CB500X so I don't know the details of what that might be. But I know that adding 100cc of displacement to an engine doesn't require any extra weight. Just look at the Ninja 300 and 400 engine specs. I think the 400 engine is even a tad lighter than the 300.

    In general terms how much extra carrying capacity do we get from the extra weight of the CB500X? In my specific case, I don't need any more than the VX300 already gives me so I wouldn't see any associated weight loss as a compromise.

    How much more fuel capacity, and associated weight, would we need to add to the VX300/400/500 to get it up to a similar range? Or do we really need that much range? I've done multi-thousand kilometre road trips on my 300 and have never found myself wondering if I've got enough range to get somewhere. If I was ever faced with a stretch where range might be a bit of an issue I know one significant solution: just slow down a bit. There's a cutoff in road speed above which the 300 sucks fuel and below which it sips it. Problem solved in most first world locations.

    On the other hand, with a 500cc engine I suspect it would actually get better range than the 300 without adding any tank capacity. To illustrate, the fuel consumption on my VX300 is, for practical purposes, nearly identical to my BMW F650GS twin (800cc engine). For another example yesterday we rode with a friend who was out on his brand new Kawasaki Versys 650 for his first ride on it. Total distance was about 220km. His consumption was better than mine by a little. And it's not even broken in yet. So I don't think it's necessary to have any larger tank and it's extra weight.

    I'm not sure how, or even if, weight has anything to do with engine reliability. I'm not aware of any reports of unreliability in the Ninja/Versys-X 300 engine, nor any reports yet of reliability issues with the Ninja/Z 400 engine. And that engine gets ridden pretty hard by some folks who don't understand anything about decent break in or regular maintenance. Please understand that's not a shot at sport bike riders. There is a percentage who ride any type of bike who don't pay any attention to maintenance and ride their bikes pretty hard. But my experience is that the sport bike category has a bit more than its share. That speaks well of the durability of the Kawasaki 300 and 400 engines.

    For me, you could drop a 500cc engine straight into the Versys-X 300 frame with whatever slight beefing up it might need for the additional power and that would be fine with me. I can't think of anything else about the CB500X that I would want/need. But I'm open to specific suggestions with specific reasons. Everyone's riding needs are different.

    ...ken...
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  7. ag_streak

    ag_streak Tiene Ruta Cuarenta? Supporter

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    This is spot-on. :beer I've had both the V-X300 and the CB500X, and frankly, I can't think of much difference, either. A 500cc Kawasaki twin would be even better than 400cc, for the torque alone. The CB500X has LOADS more torque than the Versys 300, and a calmer, mellower character because of it, but it (maybe unfairly) always gets compared to the 650cc twins in the Vstrom and such, and compared to them, it feels weak and buzzy...
  8. Hamamelis

    Hamamelis Inmate

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    I did love the Versys 650 a friend let me ride 1000 miles when I toured CA, but found it decidedly top-heavy at a standstill - that's the real perk of both the V-X300 and 500X for me, they're very handy-feeling in a slow speed setting, and that mass centralization is almost more important to me than the raw weight itself

    So if Kawi can make a 400cc or even a stroked version in the 450-500cc zone, and keep it strong and centered, then I'll 100% be a believer. I just need them to make the damn thing before I believe it's real eh
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  9. Bullwinkle

    Bullwinkle Enthusiastic curmudgeon Supporter

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    I'm gonna suggest that's hyperbole... I can't think of any other bike that could better my F650GS, especially on a mpg/speed comparison. Fuel mileage was consistently 70+ mpg (IMP), even when slicing with S1000RR, and an actual high of 93 mpg (IMP) when dialed back and loafing. That's on regular (>85 pump octane) gas. No blushing comin' from that.

    But I take your point. The CB500X is widely regarded as being "sturdier" than the Versys, with good performance and excellent economy, albeit with additional weight. While I now really appreciate a light bike, I personally could theoretically lose enough weight to make up for the difference. :lol3

    I probably could be very happy on a CB500X, especially with the 19" front wheel, but it's 100 ccs too much. The VX300 has me maybe wanting a 400cc, but nothing more than that.

    Now, if Honda was prepared to sell me one of those CB400Xs...

    JP :beer
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  10. Hamamelis

    Hamamelis Inmate

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    After some spec-sheet comparison, looks like the CB400X is around 5 kilos lighter than the 500X - slightly different engine block, but everything else is near-identical to my knowledge

    And indeed, that extra weight could be seen as its own compromise, though I dare say Honda is usually pretty on-brand as being the ones to overbuild stuff (though Suzuki can sometimes beat them out on that) - Kawasaki's more about finding clever ways to save weight, usually in a way that also saves materials and thus cost.

    Meanwhile, Yamaha is king of quality, but in a weird way where it seems like they're (presently) averse to the challenge of making anything to fit between the WR250R and Tenere 700, which is a shame because I think an MT-03 based Tenere would be a delight. Though that said, even just adventure-izing an MT-03 seems like it'd be a fun build, especially for shorter riders

    Man, normally I don't invest this much energy anymore into the whole Unicorn thing but my CRF Rally (my personal Unicorn, for now, already exists and it's my only bike, yay) is waiting on a new ignition/killswitch assembly to come in because I managed to drop it right onto the old one
  11. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    What do you mean? Honda thinks they have one for the better part of the decade; CB500x. Kawasaki had one for 30 years; KLR. Suzuki had one (Freewind) which they quickly cancelled in favor of Vstrom. And let's not forget Tenere.
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  12. Hamamelis

    Hamamelis Inmate

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    I do kinda understand why Suzuki axed the Freewind to make the Wee-Strom - adding full plastics and a 19" front to the DR650 motor is a niche application, whereas the V motor is a bit more suited to that all-rounder role for most on-road purposes

    I'd certainly try the Freewind out though if I were in a place where they were available, seems like a DR650 take on the Dominator in a cool way (especially since the DR has always been the superior motor on-road eh)
  13. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    I think weight is the most important factor for me. I'm almost addicted to CRF250L rentals at the moment, perhaps I ought to get one of the last ones since they appear to be discontinuing it? However, if the CBX500 was the same weight as the VX300, I would probably go for that - but I classify it as being almost in the T700 weight category at the moment, and if it were a choice between the two, the Yamaha would be the one and that's not where I want to be weight-wise. I'm gobsmacked that Yamaha describe it as light - since it's an evolution of the XT500 - XT600 - XT660. Perhaps it's just in relation to all the 220+kg adv bikes around. It should have been a 550-600 twin and 20kg lighter, IMO - plenty of power (more than any of those other XTs).

    Light is good. And here in Europe I don't need a bike that can hammer long distances down a freeway in adverse wind conditions (i.e. a faring is not really necessary) - that's a compromise I'm prepared to make because that usage is so infrequent. But the power to sit at 75-80 all day with ease is useful.

    That's why my unicorn is almost an impossibility, because it's such a niche machine (as JMo (& piglet) has said in the past). (I'm still despising Honda for their CRF450L offering because that would have been the one for me).
    So, compromises even with a VX400.

    My problem is that I'm getting weak and feeble (and grumpy) as I age, yet I have cash to spend and can afford slightly exotic materials. Perhaps the new owners of Norton could do a light Che Guevara 500 retro. :-)
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  14. yokesman

    yokesman Long timer

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    this is the same conversation that was had some four years ago, out came the honda 450l, priced next to a ticket to the moon with nothing that was asked for.
    now finally a T7, weight of a vstrom? with a smaller tank.
    seem kawasaki has a pretty good base in the vx300, the reason for this thread , I think is spot on. a vx400, refined abit-lighter is always good, longer suspension IS required.
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  15. Ken in Regina

    Ken in Regina Long timer Supporter

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    I resemble that remark. :-)

    One difference for me is that I'm a little on the cheap side. That has to do with displacement in this case. As Bullwinkle said a few posts back, 400cc is the cutoff, for him and for me. Around here there is a really significant difference in licensing fees above and below 400cc. And based on the performance of the VX300 and the Ninja 400 there really isn't any need to move to 500cc if the weight stays in the same ballpark as the current 300.

    ...ken...
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  16. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    I keep forgetting that. And in Europe we have a 47hp limit as one on the stages for younger riders in their progress through the learning curve.
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  17. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    I keep saying it but weight isn't 100% of the story; you need to take center of gravity into consideration. For example Africa Twin and R1200GS (regular, not adventure) both feel lighter than vstrom despite being heavier.. due to lower CoG. 790 ADV feels lighter than T7 despite being 15lbs heavier.. on par with VX3.
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  18. Fuzzy74

    Fuzzy74 Been here awhile

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    That low center of gravity was part of my purchase of Honda NC700. Big difference in riding, but if dropped in the mud it was still a heavy sucker to lift. 300X much easier to pick up.
  19. yokesman

    yokesman Long timer

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    at my age weight is a big factor, the AT may Feel light riding it but moving it around off it . It is high heavy weight. Sold it for its lack of character and didnt want to get into more suspension problems.
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  20. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    Plus a light bike is easier to not drop.
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