Versys-X 400 speculations thread

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by PaD, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. Fuzzy74

    Fuzzy74 Been here awhile

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    I spent a week touring manufacturing facilities in Germany. Machine operators had a liter bottle of beer on console to sip from while they worked. May relate to why the machines had so many more safety protections built in than what I am used to in U.S.
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  2. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    When I was in Pilsen you see many fat out of shape dudes clad in spandex riding bicycles across town. Needles to say pub at the factory was quite busy and Czech Republic has zero tolerance law and cops don't hesitate to pull you just to take the breathalyzer test..
  3. GhettoCanuck

    GhettoCanuck Been here awhile

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    Japanese manufacturing generally has the principles of "kaizen" ingrained into it; Kaizen is a culture of continuous improvement that is in use the entire way up the manufacturing chain. Many global standards for manufacturing originated in post war Japan.

    Chinese culture generally dictates "win by whatever means necessary" which in the case of manufacturing is stealing patents and making cheaper versions. It is really too bad, the Chinese have world class manufacturing capabilities but seem to be caught up on beating the completion on price at the expense of quality.
  4. GhettoCanuck

    GhettoCanuck Been here awhile

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    I may have to put my international certification to work and get a job there! :hide
  5. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    People don't remember but japanese started by ignoring western copyright and stealing and copying whatever they saw fit; made in japan had the same connotation in 60s as made in china in 90s.. they got an edge at 70/80s break. Similar korean cars were utter crap in 90s now they're more reliable than offers from japan.

    Point is that while work ethics are important equally important are know-how and design culture, things you can't build overnight. And then you have to have good part suppliers; for example the latest Brembo debacle which caused Triumph, KTM, BMW, Ducati recall was caused by japanese brake pad supplier, does it mean bad BMW? Equally gen2 KLR oil burn, suzuki stator issues are all caused by part suppliers.

    How about fork issue on Africa Twin? How long did it take to fix exploding 3rd gear on DR? etc etc etc

    Back to point: while on average japanese bikes are more reliable myth about japanese reliability is just a myth. Japan has been stagnant since 90s crash, they lost edge and if they don't wake up India and China will overtake them too
  6. GhettoCanuck

    GhettoCanuck Been here awhile

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    The thing is that the early Japanese ripoffs of British bikes were found to be better than the original product. They had better electrical systems, better carburetors, better metallurgy, and leaked less oil.

    The Chinese ripoffs of Japanese bikes... not so much.

    I am a firm believer of the mythical Japanese reliability, and constantly reiterating known issues with several models out of JAPAN INC. isn't going to make me think otherwise.
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  7. rideforzen

    rideforzen Long timer

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    Facts are not myth.

    upload_2020-10-11_11-40-1.png
  8. ddlewis

    ddlewis Long timer

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    :confused Starting to smell like troll poop here..
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  9. Bullwinkle

    Bullwinkle Enthusiastic curmudgeon Supporter

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    In the present climate of world production, where parts of any specific bike can come from all over the world, reliability starts to become a red herring. As @cyclopathic points out, a rotor or a brake assembly can come from anywhere, and the production of those in turn can have their own supply chain problems. Couple that with "just-in-time" delivery schedules and it's entirely likely that any part of any production run can have problems which will get through to the end consumer. There's definitely a place for good design and the Japanese have improved their's over the years (i.e any modern Kawasaki frame compared to the original H-1 or Z-1), but even when you copy a proven design as the Chinese are now doing there's still lot's to get wrong. In addition to design, properly speccing parts (Chinese factories can build to any quality standard, but usually are chosen primarily for cost). However, even with the best designs and specs, problems can occur.

    What is just as important IMO is how a manufacturer responds to problems when they occur. Examples abound from BMW's dreadful handling of their final drive issues after the German re-unification (i.e initial and continuing complete denial that a problem existed) to Hyundai's whimsical response to factory swarf in their car engines causing premature destruction (usually forcing it to the owners expense). For the most part, the Chinese haven't yet developed a good customer service regime, probably favoring initial sales over customer loyalty. As evidenced by some of the inmates' attitudes to the Japanese manufacturers, customer loyalty and retention has been as much a part of their success as has been their reliability.

    JP
  10. Fuzzy74

    Fuzzy74 Been here awhile

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    The reliability is what generates loyalty. 517,000 miles and 15 years on a Honda Ridgeline truck and never let down is why I now have a new 2020 Honda Ridgeline.
  11. rlkat

    rlkat Mine's a whisky

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    "It isn't so."

    :dunno
  12. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    Stick to data and facts and not personal perception that can be quite subjective.
    Sometimes we think we know the facts based on specific events or things that have happened to us personally but that is not an accurate way to
    measure things. What if you got a lemon? it can happen to anyone.
    Or you might be living in another planet or an alternative universe because anywhere you search, if you look at both A) Sales by brand B) Reliability ratings year by year
    in the top 10 you are going to find 6 or 7 japanese brands with Toyota, Lexus, Mazda, Subaru, Acura and Honda being at the top almost consistently.

    Japan vs. Europe over the years.

    upload_2020-10-11_16-45-17.png

    upload_2020-10-11_16-46-54.png



    2016 Ratings.
    Pay attention to reliability score differences considering also the huge difference in volume and the nr. of models sold per brand.
    More models, more risk for the brand reliability rating to drop.
    The car most manufactured in history continues to be one of the most reliable in history that is the legendary corolla. like what 45M units for so?


    upload_2020-10-11_16-45-45.png

    2019

    upload_2020-10-11_16-52-43.png
  13. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    That is correct is embedded in the culture but also requires a set of very mature and well established manufacturing principals.
    - Quality of raw, semi-finished and finished products and parts.
    - Heavy investment in research and development
    - Efficient and effective new production development and Product life cycle management.
    - Quality of machinery and facilities
    - Very well educated and trained workforce.
    - Exhaustive dedication to quality control and product improvement.

    Japanese didn't invent this, Europeans and US did, trained them after the war to rebuild their nation and society and then japanese perfected this and took it to the N level.
    Many countries try the same models and they cannot achieve the same levels of quality and efficiency. It doesn't mean they could not achieve this but it is hard to catch up with japans overall quality.

    toyota also has a stake on Yamaha motor co.

  14. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2020-us-vehicle-dependability-study
    [​IMG]
    https://newatlas.com/automotive/jd-power-2020-reliability-car-manufacturer-america-2020/
    [​IMG]
  15. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    come on brother. Lets be serious.
    you know JD Power is not an independent survey right but rather do multichannel "marketing research"?
    companies pay for advertisement and then JD powers is mentioned in every impression to get ranked so they do not show up everywhere at the bottom of the barrel.
    In other words it is like that J-BAN and other "seals" and "ratings", a complete fabrication of rank and commercial scam.
    unlike the consumer reports that is based on actual service calls, surveys, recalls, etc...
  16. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    This is a recurring tangent in this thread we are at it third or fourth time; there's no point to repost extended version all over again. In a nut shell:
    - japanese make design mistakes like any others.
    - their development cycle is longer (AT, T7, etc) and they produce fewer new designs
    - they are very conservative and not exactly pushing envelope
    - they're as bad as others fixing old issues.

    The only reason their bikes look more reliable is because most of them are pretty old in lifecycle and bugs do get sorted over time. Take any of big4 and you find many skeletons in their closet.
  17. tomo8r

    tomo8r Long timer

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    The other way of looking at is that KTM have too many variations of the same bike.
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  18. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    So how do you suggest we settle this? It is a theological dispute at this point; and no I am not subscribing to your believes I am agnostic.

    You give as an example refs on Connie (great bike my bro has '96) while completely ignoring issues of KLR, bike of the same timeframe. KLR is too old? It's same age as Connie.
    Does this sound like type of things you expect from KTM?

    EDIT: here's the link to Kawasaki's recall list, take a look
    https://motorcycleviews.com/recalls/motorcyclerecallsforkawasaki.htm
  19. 11motos

    11motos Feral Rider

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    come on man. these are facts, very simple.
    We can talk about marketing intelligence, data science and attribution models all day if you want because that is what I do.
    one can choose to accept facts or one can continue to believe the earth is flat.
    Critical thinking is a good thing because everyone is going to accept they are wrong until proven right. everybody wins.

    We should be proud we can come here and have opinions along with some supporting data, and then see some new bikes, or whatever.

    Enjoy this...
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  20. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    Since you missed link enjoy
    https://motorcycleviews.com/recalls/motorcyclerecallsforkawasaki.htm