Versys-X 400 speculations thread

I am joining Redex..
A nice siesta seems like a good idea

Both my grandfather and my father were great believers in siestas after lunch, regardless of how exciting or boring your morning was...




Gustavo

It seems to me if they only offer one Versys 1000 and they dub it the "S", the S could stand for STREET. And by doing this, they differentiate their Street Versys models from other models that aren't STREET.

At least that is how I would optimistically think about it.

No, I think you're stuck on your position and appear to be incapable of accepting that some of the reliability mojo they once had still exists today, locked into the processes they developed. At least for some of them. Yes, Honda (cars) reliability has gone down seriously (or has stayed the same while they got bypassed?). But Toyota reliability remains high on any of the studies I've seen.

The two of you are locked onto two gross generalizations. The reality is more likely somewhere between.

In my opinion.

...ken...

Every bike is what it is, they all have their quirks and imperfections. Some are very very cheap and rust away with the first rain and there is the occasional poorly designed abortion. Seeking profit in a completive market, manufactures have been going for generations incorporating new staff and new technologies along the way, and I'm sure we all have encountered the odd colleague who is dip-shit useless. Sometimes things go awry, some 07/08 KLR's had oil burning issues that was promptly fixed. There is that whole replacing the doohickey after run-in for many many miles of trouble free riding. Sometimes all of the team and all the parts come together like with the vx300. I'm here for the speculation and friendly banter until the vx400/klr400 finally arrives and we can start again with a dedicated thread on how to address its quirks and imperfections.

Gustavo,
Siesta is the greatest invention ever. Like a friend of mine in Spain says: No hay nada como una buena siesta de pijama. (there is nothing like good/long pajama siesta)
I barely do it but sometimes on the weekends I can go to the backyard patio we have, lay down in the hammock, give the rattle two shakes and instantly proceed with a long and thorough inspection of the inside of the eye lids.
My dogs also love siesta time.

The Japanese did not "ignore copyright" because copyright has almost nothing to do with motor vehicles -- you cannot copyright a car. There are several different kinds of intellectual property (IP): A unique product or process may protected by a patent; the unique appearance of a product may be protected by an industrial design; a company or product name, brand, logo, etc. may be protected by a trade mark; and, an original literary, dramatic, musical or artistic work may be protected by a copyright. Companies that make vehicles and their products are generally protected by patents, trademarks, and industrial designs. With the exception of owner's/service manuals and other literary features such as warning labels, copyright has nothing to do with motor vehicles. Also, regardless of the type of IP, legal protection does not last forever but only for a fixed time span. Copyright is the longest but in some countries industrial design protection can be quite short (e.g., 5 years in Australia).

It is worth noting that it is the responsibility of the holder of the IP to ensure that their IP is not infringed and to seek enforcement if it is being infringed. Given that Western companies did not, in any substantial way, pursue legal action against the Japanese companies for this supposed infringement of IP is an indicator that blatant theft of IP was not as widespread as the myth would have us believe. In most cases, the Japanese did not outright steal IP but rather they copied products that were not protected by IP (or for which protection had expired), or they introduced sufficient changes and/or unique features (usually improvements) into products that were protected by IP such that such that IP protection no longer applied. The consequence was that the Japanese companies began creating the best products in the world by combining the best ideas they could use with their own innovations and their philosophy of kaizen. That's good business. Meanwhile, companies in Western countries, with the notable exception of Germany, did not become more innovative but rather they sat back and whined about the "Japanese menace" and looked to government for market protection as the Japanese began to dominate major industries (I am looking at you H-D). AFAIC the cry of "the Japanese ripped off everything" is mostly sour grapes from Westerners who will not admit that the Japanese beat them at their own game.

iPhone?

Most of computers are made in china now.

$11.7b worth of automobile part are made in china, x3.66 times more than in japan and x5.8 of made in mexico. There are no mass sold car/truck in US without chinese parts.

Not that I don't share your sentiment but this is the reality we live in.

Having an international company set-up in China or out-source there is different than the chi-com government helping home grown companies cheaply copy the worlds goods.

I would just like to add to this explanation that even the concept of kaizen, despite being a Japanese word, did not originate in Japan. It's based largely on the concept of continuous improvement (largely using statistical analysis) that was developed by US engineers and used during WWII in the industry that supplied the armed forces. Dr. Deming (and others) took that to Japan after the war under the US led efforts to rebuild the Japanese economy. The same (or better) access to those industrial improvement theories was available to all US manufacturers. They just didn't think they needed it, so they gave Japanese manufacturers an opportunity to adopt it and get a head start on making the type of consistently reliable products we now take for granted.

Not necessarily related to kaizen, but this is often simply the cycle any industry goes through. The innovative companies get so big that they find it hard to continue innovating, opening the door to smaller upstarts that can gauge the market better and make the right products people want at that point. Happened to GM and Ford, happened to IBM, Dell, GE, etc. etc. at different points in their corporate lives in very different industries. It's even happening now to some Japanese car and motorcycle brands. Some will have the right management and make the necessary changes to remain competitive and others will eventually stop being relevant and fail.

So, to bring that back to our topic, if Kawasaki doesn't deliver on the small displacement, affordable but not bare-bones spec, adventure-tourer and/or dual-sport people seem to want now (instead of 40 different versions of the H2), it may find its sales are dropping off too...


Gustavo

I guess you don’t use a mobile phone, tablet or laptop.

Did I wake up in CSM again?

What happened to VX 400 speculation?

Yay!

There's nothing like a seppo sallying up a thread with notions of freedoms and democracies! Can't even go to the store without a gun. Freedom ...

As an example JVC was under sanctions.. I have personally owned many vinyl rock and jazz records counterfeit by Victor of Japan. Back in the day Japanese were as bad as chinese stealing.. until they got ahead. There's nothing unusual in commercial espionage; this is how we got paper, silk and gunpowder.. rockets and firearms. Even in modern times we were stealing from germans, russians, etc.

Chinese are at this point were they're getting ahead in some areas like 5G, so your sentiment is based purely on your bias.. not there's anything wrong with it.

Let's get back to that Z650. Did you ever figure out a way to lower the pegs?

I had thoughts of going that way but a new Goldwing intervened. It will have to wait a few years.

First I had heard of the 660 Aprilia. That looks like it has potential. Lots of it.

There are peg lowering kits which bolt on between peg and peg mounts; problem is they work 'till first drop. My son had them on trip to Alaska; lost both in the parking lot. Only dropped bike twice in 14.5k once in UP michigan, once in Homer, AK. Once not extending kickstand completely, another one when someone backed out of parking spot without looking . Those adapters are not for ADV use for sure and if you make them stronger mounts will go.

If you wanna do it right you would need either make custom rearsets or grind peg mounts and bolt-on plates with new mounts in right location.

Perhaps forks and front wheel off V-strom could be reused that would probably fix geometry too.. good luck

Thanks for the thorough explanation of Kaizen. I should have been more clear. TBH Kaizen both is and is not a Japanese concept. The English translation of Kaizen means "change for better". The idea of change for better has been a clear part of Japanese culture for centuries possibly as a reflection of the Buddhist philosophy of continual improvement. That is, in Japan something (i.e., a product, a process, a person, a skill, a person's knowledge) can never be perfect but can and should be constantly changed for the better (i.e., improved). This philosophy was adopted and formalized by the USA under various initiatives as you noted. These formalized processes, which were largely ignored by Western industry, were readily adopted by the Japanese in part because they built on a philosophy that was already a part of Japanese culture -- it was natural fit.

And you are right, if Kawi does not introduce some proper ADV bikes they risk, at least in that market segment, becoming irrelevant.