Versys-X 400 speculations thread

Discussion in 'Japanese polycylindered adventure bikes' started by PaD, Oct 26, 2017.

  1. SoManyFish

    SoManyFish Been here awhile

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    Thanks for the thorough explanation of Kaizen. I should have been more clear. TBH Kaizen both is and is not a Japanese concept. The English translation of Kaizen means "change for better". The idea of change for better has been a clear part of Japanese culture for centuries possibly as a reflection of the Buddhist philosophy of continual improvement. That is, in Japan something (i.e., a product, a process, a person, a skill, a person's knowledge) can never be perfect but can and should be constantly changed for the better (i.e., improved). This philosophy was adopted and formalized by the USA under various initiatives as you noted. These formalized processes, which were largely ignored by Western industry, were readily adopted by the Japanese in part because they built on a philosophy that was already a part of Japanese culture -- it was natural fit.

    And you are right, if Kawi does not introduce some proper ADV bikes they risk, at least in that market segment, becoming irrelevant.
  2. Ken in Regina

    Ken in Regina Long timer Supporter

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    But if you're irrelevant in an irrelevant sector, is that a problem?

    I'm not saying that the ADV sector is irrelevant. But is it really a "market"? it is fragmented in enough ways that it's hard to say if "ADV" is really a definable "market" (as oposed to a style). Indeed, if you look at the spectrum of what are being marketed as ADV bikes they range from near-dual-purpose/near-enduro to near-touring, and everything in between (some of the business analysis reports even formally split the ADV market into off-road and on-road segments). When you stand back (and maybe squint just a tiny bit) the ADV market looks like a duplicate of the fat mid-section of the motorcycle market, with some plastic and a bit more ground clearance.

    Now pick a tiny subsection of that fragmented market (VX400 or even "under 400cc ADV", ferinstance) and you're down to looking for fly shit in the pepper, profit-wise.

    ...ken...
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  3. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    There's no risk; they already are.

    How many adventure bikes had they built in this millennium? As street legal bikes go their core business is sport and sport-touring bikes.. some naked and cruisers too.
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  4. TNC

    TNC Candyass Camper

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    Those pegs that broke, were they the Chinese type with the 4 small pins to orient the footpeg location or something else? The cupboard is pretty bare when it comes to any lowering pegs for the Z650 even though about 5 Kawasaki's use the same footpeg. How did your son's break as far as location that failed?
  5. IndigoSwann

    IndigoSwann Pirate

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    Maybe that's the point Ken? Motorcycling has become too specialised over the last 30/40- years and these specialty bikes are not appealing to the western masses ("western countries" where this is really a hobby not a necessity) as they once did.

    In our search for the Unicorn what are we really looking for? A Motorcycle that isn't crazy expensive, or too heavy and has enough clearance and suspension to deal with light offroad but enough power and comfort to cruise highways. Maybe we need a reboot of the SL350 with modern upgrades like FI and disc brakes, add a little more suspension travel and clearance and we could be there.
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  6. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    I think that's the stumbling block for me - it would be nice to give up highways, since I rarely use them.
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  7. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    It wasn't pegs it was lowering kit a couple L-shaped CNC pieces which attached to original peg and extend it. They were from US company made in USA don't remember who/what it has been a while.

    How and why it broke? Aluminum shattered. Pegs are designed to fold and when you change geometry it doesn't work well.

    EDIT: it might have been this:
    https://motowerk.com/products/lowering-foot-peg-blocks-for-kawasaki-1
  8. cyclopathic

    cyclopathic Long timer

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    It is much more difficult proposition in US of A then in Europe. If it were 3rd world this is the way to go.
  9. DavidM1

    DavidM1 Unicorn hunting

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    Yes, you definitely have a different perspective in North America.

    It could be done here on a 250, but I desire about twice the hp, for the fun of it.
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  10. IndigoSwann

    IndigoSwann Pirate

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    After moving from a 650 to the RE Himalayan here in NA my flat out top speed is 70 mph - for me that's too slow to go on highways. A comfortable max cruising speed is more like 50mph from the 24.5 hp motor - just enough power and torque to get up steep inclines without a significant reduction in speed. Perfect for back roads.

    I know a lot of 250's have equivalent hp or better power to weight ratio's than my plodder. But here the reality is if a highway is posted as a 60mph limit most are travelling at 70mph or higher. Out west I understand most highway limits and realistic speeds are higher at 80+mph - too much for me on the Himalayan or any 250. Hence the appeal of a bike that's got a bit more power like a Honda CB500X or what a VX400 could be.

    But there's the problem, most of the larger powered bikes are 430+ lbs apart from highly tuned racing enduro's or dualsports where maintenance is in the hours. I've realized I don't need 12" of wheel travel for light offroad work but also want to comfortably cruise at 70 on highways on a smaller bike without crazy maintenance schedules or one that is too heavy for my novice ability to use well after I wonder into techniocal single track.

    I guess when I look at it the demographic I'm in it's a teeny tiny group compared to those who are happy flying around on Ninja's and GXSR's or rolling around on massive Cruisers here in the US.
  11. ag_streak

    ag_streak Tiene Ruta Cuarenta? Supporter

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    This been posted yet?

    [​IMG]
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  12. IndigoSwann

    IndigoSwann Pirate

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    Has someone photoshopped the KLR logo on a AJP Rally PR7? lol
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  13. ag_streak

    ag_streak Tiene Ruta Cuarenta? Supporter

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    :nod
  14. PhaedruZ

    PhaedruZ n00b

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    Colleagues

    Lovely thread. It is a compendium of Adv Riding thoughts on steroids with 238 pages and no end in sight. In some other forums it would have been called "the corner" , "the bar", "random thoughts" or something to that effect. It's almost 3 years old (Oct 26).
    Yet, somebody decided to call it: "Versys-X 400 speculations thread" .

    I'm actually interested on a Versys 400, but somehow got confused by the miss match between title and content. Is this the right place to ask about it? Any news on the Versys?
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  15. IndigoSwann

    IndigoSwann Pirate

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    The first thing you need to understand about the VX400 bar is that there is no news - never has been nothing currently - all is speculation so we will fill our time flapping our gums because there is no news to discuss.
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  16. TNC

    TNC Candyass Camper

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    Yeah, this is why I ended up with the Z650...the cruising speed ability. I really liked the Z400 motor, but it's still too busy when you have to stay with traffic on 75mph speed limit roads in my area. This is my biggest complaint about my KLX250/300 when I have to hit pavement stretches. It's highly modded for dirt and does a great job there, but some of the highway stretches just to make connections between trails were downright dangerous even out west when it wasn't rush hour traffic level.

    As we always say, everything's a compromise, but just like you mention, only the big single, high tech models like the KTM690, etc. can truly span the gap between realistic highway speeds and off road. Using exotic metals and components with creative design can achieve a decently lighter and more capable multicylinder ADV bike to span pavement and off road, but then the extreme cost is an issue...something most manufacturers will not attempt to bring to market.

    Cyclopathic has touched on this in a past post. The Z650 and MT-07 engines without the under-crankcase exhaust have some decent ground clearance even in their street bike version. As we see, the T7 slimmed up the twin pipe routing and placed an upswept muffler in a logical location for more non-highway use. Engine bash guards are a little harder to design and attach with a trellis frame, but the trellis frame when properly designed is lighter, stronger, and has more ground clearance...hence the Z650's move away from the old cradle Versys 650 version. KTM used the trellis for their 690 for similar reasons. The Z650 design really has the makings for a good ADV bike with some tweaks and without having to reinvent the wheel so to speak. And the Z650 twin has achieved 750cc in AMA flat track competition, so some additional displacement to 700cc or so is within easy reach.

    Back to the highway speed application of the Z400 and Z650, on my way home from work yesterday to where I live in the country it's about a 20 mile drive, and I was cruising on the highway at 80mph at 6000 rpm thinking/knowing I had made the right choice over the Z400. This is not to say that has to apply to everyone else's preference or need, just something that has become obvious to me for my application. The extra 40 pounds of my Z650 over the Z400 has been worth it.
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  17. IndigoSwann

    IndigoSwann Pirate

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    So could you fit an aftermarket pipe that wraps round the side to move it from underneath the crankcase or is it more in depth with moving hardware on the bikes?
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  18. Bt10

    Bt10 Long timer

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    All the same for me. I really only need just a little better front suspension on a vx3. and a seat, and a windshield...:lol3

    One day last week I commuted from work to the kids soccer game at 330pm. 15 miles at 83mph+ on a vx3. A 250/Hima/Genuine is a non starter - I can't stand the buffeting drafting a semi, although I have; DRZ threw a rod; can't afford/get past the wife a KTM500/701/790.
  19. Ogre_fl

    Ogre_fl Long timer

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    Lots of bits and parts photo shopped, but it looks like a KTM 450 Rally and KX450 mash up, with a 650 motor more than anything else.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
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  20. TNC

    TNC Candyass Camper

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    Until the actual appearance or nail-in-the-coffin of a Versys 400 really occurs, I think your assessment is dead on target. This whole thread has been worthwhile even when is veers off to other topics not directly to the thread title bike. Discussions hitting on the pros/cons of a Versys 400 and other scenarios actually have value for anyone considering the 400, especially in light of comparison with other bikes. Being that at the moment there is not a real Versys 400 to analyze, no harm no foul. I think the title of this thread has the word "speculation" contained in it.:-)
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