W Trans America Trail GPS tracks

Discussion in 'GPS Tracks - West & PNW' started by retired motoman, Oct 22, 2008.

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  1. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    The big difference is the CDR was first put into the public domain by some bicycle riders. They still have GPS tracks posted on the Internet. I think an organization developed it for the public to use.

    The same is true with the PCQ and thousands of miles of tracks I put into public domain on GPSXchange.com

    Sam does not offer a service, he sells a product. Sam spent a lot of time and money to develop his product just like I did developing Mex2Can. The reason we made an investment was to return a profit and we try to protect our investment. Of course the proper way would be to have each customer sign a non-disclosure agreement but we just depond the integrity of our customers.
    #61
  2. sonicapollo

    sonicapollo Adventure Addict

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    So did the oregon part get fixed this year? I bought TN-OK so far.
    #62
  3. VTRally

    VTRally Been here awhile

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    Bob,
    It's a serious question. If Sam owns this sight or somehow has a financial interest I can understand why the punters at this site would respect his business. I don't know who Sam is, hence the question of who Sam is.

    I caught your wink but I'm curious to know as well. I'm not trying to prove a point or start a flame war. If the tracks are available and I can plug them into Mapsource to make my own trip from LA up the TAT I would love to do that. If they are not available I will buy the maps and work it out. It doesn't have to suck to be an adventure.
    #63
  4. VTRally

    VTRally Been here awhile

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    Countdown,
    Thanks for the reply. I appreciate all of the work you put into different rides. I have looked at a lot of your stuff on gpsxchange.
    I have the tracks for the Adventure Cycling TAT. Free on their website. Same with the CDT tracks, which I used in addition to Big Bogs when I rode the CDT. (Mainly because I didn't want to skip Fleecer Ridge! Although, I used the map to navi this part and not the tracks) The Adventure Cycling folks are a business who make maps to ride the CDT and the TAT as well as numerous other rides. They have always been good to us with motors between our knees and they provide tracks for us. I understand that you as a member here run a business selling a product. This community protects your product and will not let tracks that follow the TAT be distributed on the board. Does your business own the rights to the TAT? Did you guys make it or did you follow the Adventure Cycling TAT and tweak it for bikes? You don't have to answer me if you don't want. I just sincerely don't understand why the tracks are protected. I would have never done the CDT ride without the accompanying maps. The maps from Adventure Cycling are fantastic and cheap. I downloaded free tracks, bought the maps looked the route over made some tweaks and away we go. Why does every single person who wants to ride the TAT have to recreate it in Mapsource?
    I plan to ride the TAT next year. I will buy your maps and compare the route to the Adventure Cycling route and decide which one to take. If I make my own route using a hybrid of the two am I not free then to distribute my tracks as my intellectual property. Serious question, not being a smart alec. I don't know what the established agreement is here.

    Okay, I just opened the Adventure Cycling TAT and it goes way North after CO. Doesn't look similar at all.
    #64
  5. bobzilla

    bobzilla Dirty Old Man

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    Check your pm's
    #65
  6. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    1) I think you have me confused with Sam who sells the TAT. Go to his site http://www.transamtrail.com/ and read about him. I do not sell a product, I only promote actual rides like http://mex2can.com/ or http://www.district37ama.org/dualsport/ridingevents.php.

    2) I think you found the answer, they are different. I didn't even know the bicycles did an east-west.

    3) I can't answer for Sam reason why he doesn't. I would provide tracks by e-mail after a person buys the roll charts.

    However I would have them sign a non-disclosure agareement and the agreement would also stipulate that the customer will not have a tag-along who did not pay. I wonder how many people buy one set of maps from Sam and take a friend or friends? How much profit do you think he makes a year? It took us 4-5 years to develop Mex2Can and we usually have to go out each year to make changes 1-2 weeks, up to 2,000 miles in truck.

    I tried selling roll charts (80's) before D37 formed a Dual Sport organization and we started putting on organized rides. Could not sell enough to pay for developing them. Now I make enough from my rides to cover all the scouting to put GPS tracks on GPSXchange.com for rides that are not commercially viable. I am working on a CDR that actually follows the divide as close as possible but will probably not make it public until I retire from putting on rides.
    #66
  7. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    The old lady leaned over and told her church companion that she had just let a giant silent one and didn't know what she should do. Her companion whispered back, first thing you should do is replace the battery in your hearing aid!
    #67
  8. bobzilla

    bobzilla Dirty Old Man

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    :rofl :rofl :rofl
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  9. boney

    boney Ride > Post Supporter

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    There is no money in making tracks, rides, or whatever. The time spent putting it all together before you even get to ride it is worth more than anyone will ever recover by charging for it. If you're (in general "you" not specifically "you") not doing it for the fun, comraderie, or benefit of a club, then you're going to be disappointed. I can't imagine that value of the time spent trying to keep the TAT under wraps is worth the cost of admission, once the cost of the maps, rollcharts, and whatever else comes in the package are included.

    So, here's a new spin on the whole "who owns it?" debate;

    If I put two locations into Google Maps, get directions from it and ride it, who owns the rights to that route? Me or Google? I followed Google's directions and used their maps...:ear

    Personally, I don't understand the "I'm not going to tell you where I rode" mindset. I ride for fun and enjoy the community of riders wherever I may be. If someone wants to know where I've been or even follow my route, more power to 'em. Trying to finance something I do for fun on the backs of my fellow motorcyclists seems...um...cheap.
    #69
  10. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    That's not what the thread is about. Its one thing to record your track while play riding, then upload that track for others to see. ItÂ’s another to put a huge amount of maybe not so fun research, travel expenses, time, and more into something which from the outset was intended to be a for fee product. To me this thread is about the ton of work put into creating the unique adventure, and the materials that are sold to enable others to enjoy it. Just because it may not be a highly profitable business doesn't mean the information is worth zero. And just like everything else, if the price is more than you think the product is worth, don't buy it! Plenty of people think it's worth the asking price, and gladly pay it. It seems to me the ones who are "cheap" are those who want valuable stuff for free.

    I know someone who charges $75 to $100 for a one day roll chart for a typical 200 to 300 mile ride. Many of the same people who pay that keep coming back for more. Why is it wrong to charge for something people are happy to pay for? Why it is ok for someone to convert those roll charts into GPS tracks then give them away for free? Don't be selfish. Pay what's being asked, or GO DO SOME OTHER RIDE!
    #70
  11. LongCliff

    LongCliff Bagger

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    <i> 1/7/10 Information removed at the request of NorthernTraveler 1/7/10</i>

    Thanks for putting this info together. I just got done putting the western routes into my gps software from Sam's charts and maps, and I cleaned up the trouble spots in Oregon per your advice.
    #71
  12. boney

    boney Ride > Post Supporter

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    NO NEED TO GET EXCITED! I said "I don't understand [it]". I know that there's people out there who are happy to fork over a load money for a set of driving directions. I'm not, and I don't get it. There's nothing horribly unique about the TAT other than the secrecy that surrounds the route- one that anyone could put together should they so desire.

    If someone wants to buy a set of maps or a roll chart and go ride, that's their deal. I just find the whole specter of including a "non-disclosure" clause and a request to keep it secret (except for the billions of ride-reports that pretty much detail the route) silly. To each their own, though.
    #72
  13. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    I don't understand;
    1) You want someone else to pay for a turn key ride but then they should give it to you??? instead of you going out and scouting a route youself?

    2) You really think $40 per state us a load of money and you are in off-road motorcycling?
    #73
  14. boney

    boney Ride > Post Supporter

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    I don't want the tracks- I wouldn't pick the route that the TAT goes. Instead, I would indeed scout my own route that went where I'd want to ride. I've already got tracks of my own a good portion of the way- and it's likely that I wouldn't even ride them in entirety without making some changes.

    $40 per state adds up quick. Considering that I choose not to pay for driving directions, I wouldn't know whether that's a deal or not.

    What I'd like to know though, Countdown, is whether you're the pot or the kettle. You've been sharing the tracks of the Oregon Backroad Discovery Trail for years, and last time I checked it's a for-sale map package that benefits the Oregon Off Highway Vehicle Association. Now there's a set of driving directions that were put together for the same reason the TAT was constructed, only it benefits the off-highway vehicle community instead of a person.

    In my book, that puts you playing both sides of the net.
    #74
  15. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    Very good question. As I understand it, the O-BCDT (A copy of our CA SMTS) was funded by tax money. I was told this by a rider who's family once owned Denio Junction and he still had a 5th wheel out back. I think his name was Greenstreet. He told me that the state paid him and his wife to lay the O-BCDT out. When he was done, the state signed it, then there was a court decision and the state took the signs down. The bottom line is that I believe that the route was first made public by the state is is therefore in the public domain.

    I was also under the impression that the Oregon OHV organization just publishes their maps at cost to promote riding (and tourism for Oregon) and not as a for profit venture. Based on that I was very dissipointed that they do not publish GPS tracks on Internet.

    As you may know in California a friend of mine pays the cost for the web site that documents our Statewide Motorized Trial System http://www.smts.info/ . I post the most current GPS tracks on http://www.gpsxchange.com/ . I have also started an SMTS for Nevada and also post it on http://www.gpsxchange.com/ .
    #75
  16. MotoJim

    MotoJim Been here awhile

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    What people are charging for is the time and effort it took to create the gps route, maintain it and distribute it.

    Sort of like Red Hat is not charging for Linux but they are charging for the support and delivery of the public domain operating system.

    Now if you could buy some GPS routes that took serveral hundred hours to create and put in a format that can be distributed for $29 I think that is a tremendous value.

    We live in a time when there is a large number of people who expect something for nothing (Health Care) and we have a government that prints money without any true value backing it (not so good will).

    We as a society are due for a major reset.

    I personally don't want anything for free.
    #76
  17. xKLR_John

    xKLR_John Been here awhile

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    I think he accomplished an awesome thing when he went out and researched and documented the TAT. If one had purchased his maps & roll charts back when they first became available they would have been an awesome value because they were fresh and accurate.

    I will one day ride the TAT. When I do, I'll buy Sam's maps just out of respect to the guy who created them. I think what would make his product much more valuable would be UPDATES. Yes, stuff happens and you'll have to reroute but from reading ride reports on here you can see that some detours have been occuring for years. Instead of having 100s of riders make the same corrections over and over, why not fix it once at the source? In the long run I think he's shooting himself in the foot by not updating. If someone has to go grab some GPS tracks to easily complete sections of the TAT because the maps are so out of date, that leads them to wonder what exactly they're buying.

    Just some thoughts from someone who's too busy with work/family right now to go ride the TAT but I will one of these days....
    #77
  18. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    Good point, has any one contacted Sam? At least point him to this thread.

    On Mex2Can I go out almost every year to change the route. Sometimes that involves driving to Idaho for a few days that is very expensive which is one reason why the ride costs what it does. Bottom line you get what you pay for.
    #78
  19. Jeff@TheQuadShop

    Jeff@TheQuadShop TAT survivor

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    I know Sam, he's not on the computer very much.
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  20. EnduroRdr

    EnduroRdr Woods Racer & D/S Rider

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    Personally I don't see the harm in sharing tracks/routes etc. Sam doesn't sell you a package for your GPS, he sells you paper. Buy it if you feel guilty, but just because he sold some paper does that make him God of the route?
    Like it was said earlier, if I use Google Earth or map quest or whatever to make a route, do they own "my" route? I dont think so! So if someone wants to share "their" tracks then so be it. If Sam is so special to get a cut from every rider that ever rides cross country then he should at least provide updates and do it electronically if he is to be the God of all TAT information. Rand McNally sells road maps - I own several - but if I make a route for my buddy to get from his house to mine using GPS, should I tell him to send some money to Rand McNally because they already had the same roads printed on their paper maps?
    When I do ride it I will most likely buy his paper, (to use as additional information) to assist in gaining information, But like others here I'd appreciate the free flow of exchanging new improved routing electronically.
    It aint about the damn money for me. Hell share your tracks with me and I'll send you money then you can send it to Sam to clear "Your" continence. All this crap about you must experience transferring it yourself so you get the whole effect, (sounds more like - I worked my butt off several nights transferring it into GPS so you should do the same thing - :(:), well sometimes it is just nice to save some time and effort and make use of other peoples experiences to better yours. Should I tell my kids to not touch that hot frying pan or maybe they need to learn it the hard way. I guess I should wash my clothes on a rock too instead of using modern washer, you know to get the whole experience.
    So now the sparks can fly again!
    Guess I just farted in church too - :lol3


    http://www.miller90.eclipse.co.uk/TAT/GPX%20files/Maps.htm
    #80
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