W Trans America Trail GPS tracks

Discussion in 'GPS Tracks - West & PNW' started by retired motoman, Oct 22, 2008.

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  1. ktm530russ

    ktm530russ Adventurer

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    I agree about 80%. If you were just riding across country, and most of it just "happened" to be on the TAT route, why pay for paper maps? BUT... Sam DID put a LOT of effort to find the dirt options, updated to avoid private property as much as possible, so if you ride THIS route, he should be compensated for it.
    The biggest issue/complaint regarding GPS is how to "protect" the intellectual property rights of the person doing the "discovery". Since tracks are so easy to copy and forward, in a short time, a route like this would become "public" as it would be posted EVERYWHERE on the internet. (Maybe Sam could create Electronic maps, and have the riders sign a "non-disclosure" agreement to use them. There are ways to uniquely mark each copy, so if one went "rogue", it could be traced back to the original purchaser)

    Now... I TOTALLY disagree with all the posts that state "Roll Charts are the ONLY way to do this ride, with 'maybe' a backup GPS... The main "reason" stated is "looking down at the GPS all the time you will miss the turns". Well, Duh... You will be doing the SAME THING with the Roll charts, looking down and trying to figure out milage and turns...
    Your analogy of washing clothes by beating them on rocks, vs. a washing machine is right on... Roll Charts are antiquated, a good GPS (Garmin 60Csx?) works SO MUCH BETTER! (Follow the line... if you are "off" the line, you are not on the trail.)
    Argument #2 against GPS... "You might follow a line off a cliff!". Possibly true if you just use a map and create a track, so caution is advised. BUT! If someone has RIDDEN the route, their track will definately NOT run you off the trail.

    I think Sam should provide electronic maps/GPS Tracks for this ride, and discard the Roll Charts. Our group in N. California has run a LOT of Dual-Sport rides in the last 18 months, the only two that "failed" were Roll-chart rides... (odometer issues, poor markings on the chart, etc.) ALL of the GPS were "spot on", as the routes were pre-ridden, and the tracks created off of this...

    So,
    1: Provide GPS Tracks for the TAT!
    2: Discard the Roll Charts!
    3: Update the Route! (Closed roads in Oregon, Bridges out, Roads removed, etc.)
    4: Finish the TAT to the East Coast?

    (20 months until my "wrong way" TAT ride, August 13th, 2011!!!)
    #81
  2. ktm530russ

    ktm530russ Adventurer

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    Oh, and one last thing... I will be purchasing Sam's maps in April to start planning, but I do NOT want to hand-transcribe ALL this junk into GPS tracks. (Read some of the other threads regarding doing this, and "missing" the road while drawing the track on MapQuest. or not finding the trail at all...) :huh
    Since I am a "Wrong way" rider, it would Double the work to make these. Having GPS tracks of riders who ran the route already would make this a non-issue. (load the track, follow the line "backwards", no dead-end roads, blocked trails, closed bridges, since this would be a previously 'completed' ride...)
    #82
  3. NorthernTraveler

    NorthernTraveler Long time Adventurer

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    I can't say it often enough, but you learn ALOT when you transcribe from Sam's roll charts into Mapsource.

    I've done it several times.... reworking and updating my routes.

    And I've ridden the TAT twice - in pieces in '07, and straight through in '09.

    It is NOT double the work to ride it backwards..... after you finish creating your route following Sam's roll chart all you have to do is to have Mapsource reverse the route. One quick step.


    OK - here is how I recommend laying out the TAT routes in Mapsource -

    1. DO NOT USE AUTOROUTING!!!! Use point to point (or direct) routes only. Turn off auto recalcuate in your GPS.

    2. Do one state at a time.... or only extend a state to the next overnight stop.

    3. Starting at the beginning of a state, use Sam's maps to place into Mapsource the known locations.... use the milage as the waypoint name.

    4. Start at the beginning of a state at a known location follow the roll chart placing a waypoint at each corner on the rollchart. The previously placed known locations will help you keep on track. I like to use waypoints with the milage at that point as the waypoint name.

    5. Create routes starting at an overnight stop following your previously placed waypoints and adding via's as needed to follow the roads you want to use. Stop the route at the next overnight stop, and start a new route continuing on..... the last route in a state will carry over into the next state. So, for example, Colorado has three routes starting in Trinidad, Salida, and Lake City. The first 50 miles of Colorado is on the last route from Oklahoma, the last 50 miles of the last Colorado route is in Utah.

    6. Add in the gas, motel and camping waypoints as needed.

    7. You should have notes on known reroutes on hand as you do this....fix them before you get there. The worst state for reroutes is Oregon - my notes are posted on this thread and are fairly up to date (8/31/09)

    8. If you are running it west to east, now is the time to reverse it using Mapsources tool to do so.
    #83
  4. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    You apparently didn't read this thread, because you argue a bunch of irrelevant points, and completely skip over what's important. Someday, if you ever work hard to create something unique that has value, and someone copies it or steals it, you'll understand. Given your ridiculous excuses and arguments of why it’s ok to steal, my guess is you’ll never understand. It's because of people like you, who have no respect for other people's work, that I keep my rides very tight. Invitation only, respectable people only!
    #84
  5. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    +1
    On Mexico to Canada, riders must turn in their Roll Chart every night, I set their GPS to not record tracks, and erase their active log and saved tracks every day. This is just because of people with no respect for intelectual property like posted above. The very first year a guy saved our tracks and we found out that his brother-in-law profesional guide used them the next to guide a foreign rider. thank god some one broke a leg and it turned to caca. We have never let them out since.
    #85
  6. intothenew

    intothenew Briar Patch Navigator

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    I can help with that one, kinda sorta, if you don't mind Hillbilly Homebrew.

    The TetNJ and the Twvt will get you from the right coast suds to Jellico or vice versus.
    #86
  7. VTRally

    VTRally Been here awhile

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    Jerry you and I have been round the barn already in this thread as I was the original church farter.
    Your second to last sentence is fairly illuminating to how serious you take this. I am gobsmacked it bothers you that much.
    #87
  8. EnduroRdr

    EnduroRdr Woods Racer & D/S Rider

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    Oh please, get off the whollier than tho soap box. With that attitude then I suppose that if you and a buddy were to ride it together then both of you can not share information on the route (buy your own stuff & stop looking at my maps!) I'm not stupid, and I am not suggesting "stealing" - or as you put it - "ridiculous excuses and arguments of why it’s OK to steal" and yes I understand & my conscience is clear, maybe you should try to open "your" mind and take the blinders off. We all agree that if you create something that you sell, then you want to protect it from getting distributed free. (otherwise its kinda hard to sell it - doh) Patent laws are there for that. Define what you are claiming to protect here! I thought we were talking about gps tracks. BTW HogWild, I did read this thread, if you go back to the first post it is all about asking for GPS tracks.
    I'm not suggesting you go post Sam's map and roll chart package on the internet. He has every right to ownership of those and we all respect that, But like I said, if I make a route on "MY' gps that used same suggested route by Google or same roads that are on a purchased map, do they have a rights to the distribution of my gps tracks I made?

    Also maybe you should go back and read SAM's website:
    He clearly states that his intent is to share this adventure! (key word there is share) and in an effort to make it easier for riders he is providing a package to help people explore this route. That package is his maps and roll charts. I think - if you read this - that he intends "in the spirit of adventure riding" to make it as easy as possible for others to ride this epic route and that he only asks to be compensated for the work and materials "He" can provide you. No where in his site does he make claim to own the route - or gps tracks of it.
    As stated I will gladly pay "Him" for "his maps", when I need maps, (which I will do when I ride it) And I think most folks here do that for the additional information from his maps and out of respect for his efforts but that should not prevent the rest of the world from sharing gps tracks and improving upon this route. (on public roads and trails or private lands that are open to public - with no access fees YET!)
    I suppose you think your being real noble but I don't think he is that concerned with others sharing gps tracks - otherwise he would be maintaining gps in his packages.

    folks - Buy the maps & charts for that information but don't let a few "for profit" tour guides prevent you from sharing "your" information about public routes. Obama has not converted us into communists just yet!

    Read it and make you own conclusions. (especially the last part)


    Quote from his site:
    "[FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif]The price of my Map & Roll Chart odometer system of navigation is meant only to cover my costs of production and to cover the shipping fees to send to you (shipping fees are included in the price). Mostly, I just want to share this amazing adventure."

    See Link---> http://www.transamtrail.com/purchase/

    .
    [/FONT]
    #88
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  9. EnduroRdr

    EnduroRdr Woods Racer & D/S Rider

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    Countdown - +1 - "thank god some one broke a leg and it turned to caca." WTF ???
    Geezzzz if another rider from another group broke his leg would you even send for help when you came up on him? - or maybe that would be bad for business?
    Really surprised you could write that one! Your rides sound fun - kinda like a concentration camp! "Attention - hand over you cameras, cell phones & gps, strip search at 9pm then straight to bed men! We will have koolaid for breakfast":poser
    Since you seem to own that part of the world - Just curious, are you making lots of money doing that? (not that I'm opposed to paying for guide service, which yours & HogWilds may well be a great service, but this is still America and I think we are still free to roam by ourselves without the trail Nazi's checking our papers right? - unless they work for the BLM :pissed)
    By the way do you help riders in your group if they break down? How much would you charge a fellow rider to help him fix a flat when he goes riding with you? Would he get a break on the service charges if he already had all the tools and tube needed with him? (I guess you could always shoot their bike if a flat were going to slow down your 'Invitation only group"), Hey here's an idea for ya, maybe you could sell the video rights to flat fixing? Do you take VISA while out on the trail? :lol3

    But it's all OK - Morons are people too, and as another ADV rider, if I ever see you out on the trail with a flat (or a broken leg) I'll help you fix it - no charge really!

    Hugs & kisses - your buddy the sarcastic SOB. :jose
    #89
  10. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    I just sent an email to Sam to see what he thinks...

    > Hi Sam,
    > Are you in favor of or against the free distribution of GPS tracks of TAT,
    > that others have recorded while following your maps and roll charts?
    > Thanks,
    > Scott


    And Sam's response...

    I am against it. It is wrong and unfair.....there
    is no way to prevent this from happening...Free distribution hurts future
    developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders.........Sam


    That's pretty clear!

    It doesn't matter how you copy his unique creation (anything that defines the route TAT follows); photocopy, photograph, hand transcribe, GPS track/route, whatever . . . it's still copying his unique creation. Making a personal copy from your paid for material is fine, but as soon as you provide it to others, or use such copies that others have made, you're stealing from Sam. If you want to make your own route, and by coincidence it hits some of the same roads TAT follows, that's fine, as long as you haven't used Sam's materials (or any form of copies of his materials) to create it. No amount of excuses makes it right to copy and distribute someone else’s stuff or use such copies without their permission. The bottom line is if you are following the very unique TAT route and you haven't paid Sam, you're probably stealing from him. And you're hurting others by discouraging creative hard working guys like Sam from making fantastic rides like TAT in the future. Some people know the difference between right and wrong, some don't.
    #90
  11. Black Mesa Offroad

    Black Mesa Offroad BRP Pilot

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    :rofl :rofl :rofl
    #91
  12. EnduroRdr

    EnduroRdr Woods Racer & D/S Rider

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    Scott, you make some valid points, and taken in "that simple context" I can completely understand your position and Sam's. I have to assume that is a real response from Sam. And as you put it in those simple terms. I can see and understand the response. (your email to him in it's simplicity implies that it is a direct intent to copy his map route via gps tracks).

    Unlike me who talks in riddles and is too often sarcastic. I tend to use extreme (sometimes meaningless) examples to drive a point. But once in a while I manage find a good analogy.

    So in those terms: Congrats - You win the volley :bow. I'm not too small to concede that part. Trust me, my intent and long winded bullshit responses are not intended to undermine intellectual property (as such) or belittle the efforts of Sam to establish the route. Although, again assuming that is a real email response, I fail to see how - As Sam put it - "Free distribution hurts future developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders". Seems to me that - Confirming the route using more current gps tracks would HELP future development. I suppose I mostly take offense to others automatically assuming I (or others) only seek to freeload from them. If you ask for tracks, right away a bunch of people respond - you gotta go to SAM, well Sam doesn't provide gps tracks. A lot of folks honestly just want to inject additional resources (as much as they can) into what is often considered the ride of a life time. Most folks asking are not trying to save 50 bucks for that state or even a couple hundred bucks if they intend to ride it all, that is just a drop in the bucket regarding expenses when contemplating that kind of trip, (not everybody will ride the TAT multiple times - some may only do it once ever) and they want to get it right, not just by spending countless hours going cross eyed reviewing maps either, using others proven tracks will often help uncover what could be costly mistakes that may have been avoided if they were to compare their intended or transcribed route to one that someone else has confirmed. Ok, getting long winded again! :bueller

    But to be fair, I would like your honest opinion on it with a simple twist added (that you left out in your letter to Sam). and would be interested in his reply if you would have added that element of - The gps track recipient having purchased the maps.
    Probably driven by my pathetic attempt at some sort of face saving. :rofl

    Lets assume I had already purchased the roll chart & maps package for the area intended (or all of the route). Would you then approve of sharing tracks from TAT rides with another that can prove he had done due diligence by buying a package from Sam?

    Suppose you were shown a canceled check or some sort of proof that is not to easily made up. Maybe a secret hand shake. <-- Ok maybe getting sarcastic again - cant help it it's in my blood. Born a smart ass, probably will die a smart ass.
    #92
  13. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    It takes TONS of time to do what Sam, Jerry, and others do to completely document a great ride. Until you've actually created such a work yourself (maps, roll charts, notes, etc), you may not appreciate just how time consuming it is. For me anyway, much of the drive and enthusiasm to do all that work comes from the adventure of exploring new places, seeing new things, etc. Once you've completed the original work, that enthusiasm is gone. Going back to edit and rework all that paper is no fun at all. So, it doesn't get done as well as many wish. Sure, it would be great if a ride like TAT was constantly updated. But who has the time and enthusiasm to do it? I say make the best of what Sam has, or go do something else.

    Another great motivator is when people show their appreciation for the hard work put into making the ride. Several hundred dollars payment for roll charts and maps speaks volumes more than an email saying "thanks for sending me the free GPS tracks". Far worse is when there is no acknowledgement at all, when the GPS tracks are floating around the internet for all to grab without even saying thanks. That's like a stab in the back. The more times you get stabbed in the back for the work you do, the less likely you'll be to do that work again. So, when Sam gets stabbed in the back enough times, he'll quit documenting new rides. I feel the exact same way, and it sounds like Jerry (Countdown) feels that way as well. More stabs in the back, less documented rides in the future!

    Yes. That sounds great. But in the real world that's impossible to implement without opening the door further to abuse. Sam said basically the same thing in the email I posted. The more a GPS track becomes available, the more it will spread outside the control of the creator. There's no perfect solution to this. "Nazi" Jerry's approach is strong-arm control, which seems to work. Sam has picked a different approach, and he's being stabbed in the back by those who post GPS tracks of TAT, and those who post links to those tracks. My approach is to carefully screen the people who receive my roadbooks, befriend them as much as possible so they would feel bad if they stabbed me in the back, and make sure they understand that distribution of GPS tracks without my permission would hurt everyone.
    #93
  14. Disco Dean

    Disco Dean Long timer

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    Just jumped in and thought I might make myself a pinata...

    This is really a no win argument.

    This one is simple - it is the same as copying music... someone writes a tune and you like it and you think it is okay to copy and share it?

    That isn't right at all.

    Sam created the experience by creating the trail.

    This is the same as an artist even sampling another artists song - you can't unless you compensate them for it. Even partially.

    But.... BUT... we can't stop the free sharing of the route - simple. It is where we are culturally and some of us will - simple. Sorry but simple.

    After all it just comes down to good form - if you are walking behind someone on the street and see them lose a $20... do you stoop down and pick it up and walk away or give it back to them...

    Which type of person are you?

    My take is this - when I do the TAT this summer I will be talking to a bunch of people and asking for advice and they will be sharing route changes and maybe even some GPS points to get around problem areas or take me to good areas. This to me is cool as some of it concerns safety and the evolution of the route (as it will change by its nature every minute - not as a song does)... This is how nature works and the ride involves constantly changing elements. Either way - just to show my appreciation to the creator I will be buying the maps and paying the money. Just like I can't just go and make an iphone just because I can pull it apart and figure out how it works...

    After all without him there would be NO route at all and no TAT and just some dreams.

    For that matter it is worth a whole lot more than what he charges.

    I know it is dramatic but I believe it when I say... we can't take anything with us when we kick it and if we are going to expend so much effort to live a dream like this - after all this isn't saving any babies or curing cancer... - then pay for it. Or steal it. Your call. But, remember the TAT is a dream realised and shared with you to realise. Given all the posts on here it looks to be pretty important one at that.

    If I have a suggestion then I would say to Sam to create a TAT forum on his site to evolve the route - anyone who buys the package also gets access to the forum and can share and evolve the route. All in one place. Then someone who wants to know and learn about it can by purchasing the package. Make the gps points available to those who bought it. You won't get rid of the sharing but it will encourage the growth of the route as well as generating some control and revenue. If he was smart he would sell ad space to the communities and companies along the route. Not too complicated and he might even get some tourism money for it.

    But it would in essence change the dream forever as it is now...changing with all of this crap.

    Anyway - my two cents.
    #94
  15. Black Mesa Offroad

    Black Mesa Offroad BRP Pilot

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    Sort of kind of but not really:wink:
    #95
  16. Disco Dean

    Disco Dean Long timer

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    It is different for sure... like I said, but not by too much. If he just rode a cool road out west then whatever.... but he worked hard to create an experience... and it is telling that so many of us here want to be a part of it and importantly don't want to figure it out ourselves. That right there makes it valuable.

    Nowadays you can buy a song for .99 cents... would you go to the convenience store and walk out with a chocolate bar? Just because it is easy doesn't make it right.

    I'm not righteous by any means. I just can't do it anymore.
    #96
  17. Black Mesa Offroad

    Black Mesa Offroad BRP Pilot

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    It would be one thing if someone passed off their GPS tracks to someone else under the guise of TAT GPS files and tried to make money off it based on the fact that it is using something another guy created as marketing purposes.

    But here's a kicker. How many GPS files are available for free that are of areas that are taken off of public land? The trails in Moab, Johnson Valley, what have you. You can buy the maps, but does that give the creator of those maps the standing to squash any sharing of GPS tracks created on the same trails? I can also go on at least my state's (and probably the other states as well), download maps for free and just going off the information posted here and other websites(which I have done for my area), create the necessary mapping needed to complete the TAT ride.

    Basically, it all boils down to the fact that Sam can own the name and the roll charts and maps with the specific directions; but to squash a computer file created by another person that traveled publically accessible routes smells like nothing more than holier than thou elitism............
    #97
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  18. ktm530russ

    ktm530russ Adventurer

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    I can see both sides of this argument, and there are some valid points for each...

    1: "Free distribution hurts future developement of this project and this hurts ALL of the riders". - Sounds good, but how many YEARS have riders been complaining about the SAME issues of "bridge out", and "Oregon S*#ks". If Sam wants to keep his intellectual "property rights", he should take the TIME to update and incorporate the "fixes" that many of you here have posted up. The fact that he has not, even after all this time, "dilutes" the value of the TAT Maps, and I would have to say that it is no longer "protected" information. (just stated for arguments sake, I firmly believe these still have value, and advocate purchasing).

    2: There ARE options for the "cheap"... it took me about 6 hours of reading the TAT ride report threads, and posting "known location" WayPoints to get the "meat" of the ride on MapQuest. Anyone who wants can do this. Then they can "ride the TAT", but would likely miss most of the "good stuff" on Sam's maps. (and a LOT of the stuff in Nevada, Utah, would be so hard to find that anyone doing this would likely NOT be on the TAT route anyway!) These "cheap" SOB's could then post up their GPS tracks if they wish, since this would be THEIR intellectual property...

    3: I think Sam might be missing out on a good compromise... Post up to a public forum the TAT GPS Route. (just the Track of the main route). Any special "secret sections" could be excluded from this track. The VALUE of Sam's maps is really in the "other stuff", such as Fuel stops, Hotels, special sites, camping, etc. He would still get business from most riders (and I would be/am gonna be one).

    4: As long as a rider is doing a "discovery" ride, or going on an "assumed" trail, with no prior (detailed) knowlege of where that trail actually is, they can post GPS tracks up to their hearts content. The minute they start using OTHER resources, such as Sam's maps/roll charts, then the GPS tracks would be "protected" as the other resources property, and should NOT be posted. period.

    (I think I am rambling, and might even be contradicting myself?????)

    So, when I take my TAT ride in August 2011, (60 days+ planned for the round-trip), I will be using Sam's TAT Maps/Roll Charts as "a" Resource, but not my ONLY resource. After I purchase these in April/May, I will likely be asking some of you for PM GPS of the TAT, either in sections, or across the whole trip. This would alleviate most of the "dead-end" trail issues... Also, a lot of the "stops" have other riding options, especially the Moab area, so gps info on some of these would also be helpful when the time comes...

    I am also working on an "Alternative" route at the Western end, heading South-East from the Cal/Ore/Nev border, by Mount Shasta, to Eureka, (vs. North-East around Crater Lake). The middle is fairly complete, still need to work on the Coast and Eastern portions, with 3 options for a lot of this route. (Slab, Forest Service Road, and technical). Thoughts or comments on providing this would be appreciated.
    #98
  19. ktm530russ

    ktm530russ Adventurer

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    I think we started this by asking for GPS tracks "in addition" to the TAT maps, due to some of us (lazy? time better served on other projects?) not wanting to take the time to hand-transcribe them into Mapquest....

    The MAIN reason that *I* would like the GPS tracks (preferably the ride tracks, not the "track draw tool" tracks) is that this would guarentee the track is accurate. Read the many other posts regarding those using the "hand-drawn" tracks, via's, waypoints, Routing tools, etc. and many places the track is NOT anywhere CLOSE to the actual TAT trail.
    Having an accurate "as ridden" track would assure that you don't "get lost" in any of the thousand questionable turns on this route.

    (...and I am NOT going to use this as a "follow the line" ride track, as I plan on going slow and enjoying the ride, with many layovers in the "funner" locations. This is gonna be used as a confirmation line that I am still on the correct route...)

    Russ
    #99
  20. Black Mesa Offroad

    Black Mesa Offroad BRP Pilot

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    That's kind of a slippery slope persay just for the fact that there have been GPS tracks posted on 3rd party websites of TAT runs in progess. Did that website have permission to post those tracks?
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