W Trans America Trail GPS tracks

Discussion in 'GPS Tracks - West & PNW' started by retired motoman, Oct 22, 2008.

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  1. BlueByU06

    BlueByU06 Ribbon Rider

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    So I buy the rollcharts from Sam.I'm on is TAT route.I fall down and get injury bad,now I sue Sam because he didn't warn me that the hazard was there.I know he as never thought of this.Cause I have seen no release of liabity anywhere on SAM site.Along with profits comes liabity.And I can guartee U that their is plenty of attorney out there that would just love to take Sam apart for this TAT route.Sam can't have is cake and eat it too.Like that other guy said Sam wants to SHARE the Adventure with Us.But as soon as he started having people pay for these TAT roll charts he opened himself to the liaibilty that comes with owning something FOR SALE.So Sam better go get a patent on these rollcharts and become a LLC company.Or go back to the where it was original intended,to SHARE the route with other Adventure rider. Flame suit on....
  2. Disco Dean

    Disco Dean Long timer

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    Sure... I've even gone on google earth with the place names and found the trails in satellite images - where one can click and get the coordinates. In the end to ME... Sam did the work. I like it. I appreciate it. And, I think the "kicker" to all of us is - We wouldn't have done it without him "not that way" so I feel I should compensate him for it - that is all. Do what you want... like I said - your call.
  3. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    Not sure what the point of this is.

    Sam is trying to have his cake and eat it to?
    Sam should go out of business?
    Author knows Sam doesn't have liability protection?
    A message to sleeze-ball riders to go on TAT, get hurt, and cash in? (Nuke it)
    Advice to Sam on how to protect himself?

    Yes in this world, liabililty protection is a must. Rider signed acknowledgement of risk, disclaimer on product, and insurance is the standard. We have done very well with AMA liability protection.
  4. huggybear

    huggybear Been here awhile

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    Can we sue RAND McNALLEY because We used their maps on any Hy?
  5. EnduroRdr

    EnduroRdr Woods Racer & D/S Rider

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    Sure why not, in America it seems you can sue anybody for anything.

    See these stupid lawsuits - http://www.snopes.com/autos/techno/cruise.asp
  6. VTRally

    VTRally Been here awhile

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    Talk about rabbit trails!

    I think the whole issue boils down to this:

    Sam offers a "Product", his product is a guide to a cross country route that he took the time to figure out, assemble, collate and turn into a form usable by others. It's a turn key route with all of the planning done for you. He chose to sell this "product" and rightfully so asks that whoever purchases his "product" does not pass it to others. In the same way that a dvd or cd is copyrighted.

    Sam does not own the roads or the air that is passed through on his route. He does not own the "TAT". He owns the the intellectual property that he sells. Maps and rollcharts.

    Do I believe it would be inconsiderate to ride a route that somebody put together on their own dime without compensating them, if they did it as a for profit venture?

    Yes!

    Does Sam as a business man selling a product have a responsibility to keep his product marketable if he expects people to answer yes to the above question?

    Yes!

    If I respect Sams' intellectual property and buy his maps but want to borrow somebody else's tracks so I don't have to redraw tracks manually am I a thief?

    No!
  7. BikerBill

    BikerBill Motorcycle Addict

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    Clint,

    That about sums it up for me. I plan to ride at least the eastern portion of the TAT this summer. I will buy Sam's package to use for planning, but I will be using other riders GPS ride tracks to keep it accurate and safer. Most likely my actual ride tracks will be at least slightly different than the other rider's because the route will probably have evolved yet again since their ride last year. Roads get closed(or moved) and property gets sold to owners that don't want knarley adventure riders driving past their little piece of paradise. It will be interesting to see how much the TAT has evolved since Sam's first maps. I don't see how he could be held liable for any injury I might sustain. Anyone that hasn't figured out riding motorcycles can produce personal injury(specially if ridden off-road/on bad roads) is naive beyond my ability to comprehend.

    Bill
  8. BlueByU06

    BlueByU06 Ribbon Rider

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    Your wrong if I buy a DVD or CD and what to sell them that is totally legal.I can't copy them and sell them that's illegal.But If someone buys Sam Map's and rollchart and wants to sell them when they are done with their trip.
    That's is totally legal.As long as it's not a copy of Sam's map and rollchart.That's like saying if I just brought the milepost book for going to Alaska that when I'm done with it I can't sell,sure I can.I brought it is now Mine to sell or keep.Now I'm not talking about making copies and selling them.Just selling the original copy.One thing I know Sam's had to use copyrighted material to connect the roads all together.He just didn't start wandering around the country and connecting all those roads all by himself without help from other copyrighted material...
  9. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    It always amazes me how many ways people find to cheat someone else out of their hard earned money. BlueBalls06, when you go to an event where they give you a snap on wrist band for entry, do you pull it off once you’re inside and hand it through the fence to the highest bidder?
  10. roger slower

    roger slower Adventurer

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    I think that Sam needs to get on the board and get all this corrected, BlueByU06 is correct in that you by somerhing you can turn around and sell it but where the RUB comes in you can not legaly copy that information and sell it. you go to jail and dont collect 200.00:clap
    roger'sklr:clap :freaky :lol3
  11. VTRally

    VTRally Been here awhile

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    Yeah, and that's what I meant. If some of you could spell and use proper grammar it would make things a lot easier. :D
  12. MookieBlaylock

    MookieBlaylock Long timer

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    how up to date is the product that sam sells? knowing that it is fairly recent i would be more likely to attempt without backup track logs, but if its like 5 years old forget it i would need as much info as possible, nothing to do with money or intelectual property rights or any of that noise just wanting not to die in the oregon desert.
  13. Jeff@TheQuadShop

    Jeff@TheQuadShop TAT survivor

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    To me it's not about if it's legal or not, it's about thanking a man that spent 15 years of his life and 10's of thousands of dollars to create this trail for us by purchasing his knowledge.

    It is a moral issue!
  14. HogWild

    HogWild Scott Whitney

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    It seems lots of people are missing that gene.
  15. Disco Dean

    Disco Dean Long timer

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    That's what I was trying to say in my typically verbose way... so thanks for clarifying it.

    +1...
  16. Countdown

    Countdown Long timer

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    Forget what? I assume you mean forget buying and doing Sam's TAT?

    The issue is not that every one would always "need as much info as possible" (actually "want") the issue is if someone publically distributes the information. They are the one with the ethics violation, not the one who wants or sees it.

    Sam sells a porduct, it is what it is. You can buy it, use it, and deal with the issues or you could just go out and pioneer your own route.

    The issue is very simple. If you buy the product and you do not want to put in the little work to draw your own GPS tracks, it is wrong go on a public forum and ask for someone to make the GPS tracks public. The result is obvious, very few would then buy the roll charts and they would probably soon not be available.
  17. NorthernTraveler

    NorthernTraveler Long time Adventurer

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    I'm fed up with some folks on here not willing to pay Sam for his work creating the TAT.

    You want to ride the TAT, you pay the man.

    Is the TAT roll charts and maps as distributed up to date and completely accurate? No. It's impossible.

    Has Sam tried to keep them up to date, at least somewhat? Yes.

    Has there been known problems identified and listed here and elsewhere? Yes.

    With a little work to find these updates can you work around these known problems? Yes.

    Keep in mind, you mostly likely WILL have to make reroutes on the fly due to weather and other situations.

    Because of all the carping about all of the above and people who just want the tracks and routes for free, I've had it! :eek1

    So I removed my updates for Oregon that addressed all known problems (that were updated 8/29/09 - how's that for current?).

    If you want to PM about them, do so... but I'll tell what's gonna happen.... if you can demonstrate you have Sam's roll charts, and have built your own routes that are 95% accurate, I MIGHT be willing to either give you the updates or fix your routes. No promises. I've previously given my suggestions as to how you might want to build a route on the TAT, but do whatever you want.
  18. VTRally

    VTRally Been here awhile

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    I saw very few expecting to ride for free.

    All well and good and I don't disagree. It does seem as though there is a large group of folks who report the same problem over and over again. A person who sells a product IMO has to keep the product updated.

    I don't know what this is going to accomplish. You're not hurting the cheapos who won't pay for the route. You are only hurting those that have the route and are looking for known problems.

    FWIW I clearly stated that the route should be payed for. We only disagree on the sharing of tracks.
  19. Jeff@TheQuadShop

    Jeff@TheQuadShop TAT survivor

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    I do know that Sam was in OR this past August making changes, I'd be willing to bet that they are already updated on maps and charts that are shipping now.
  20. bobzilla

    bobzilla Dirty Old Man

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    That helps the guy that bought them 4 months ago and is planning for this year.:lol3

    I really dont understand all this any way. People said they had problems in Or so i did a bit of track drawing and then proofed it in Gearth. I got a track that I think is going to be better than what Sam had.. I know exactly why people want tracks....... they are proofed and someone did all the work:rofl . Sam got in on this before GPS really took of and did it old school.... now people want new school but may lack the skills of using mapping programs.

    I am really surprised it has stayed off line this long. I am going to have to really think about passing on my tracks from next years ride. I mean Ill be going on the "TAT" but I know I am going to ride some of Sams trails and some of my own. Ill ber "off" his for a lot of Ut, 90% of Nv and 95% of Or. The snow will decide how much of Co we follow. But we are gooing from Ok to Or so were half TAT. Now I have a dilemma and all I wanted to do was go for a ride with some good friends:rofl
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