warning to all TKC-80 90/90-21 tubeless wire wheel users

Discussion in 'Vendors' started by woody's wheel works, Dec 18, 2005.

  1. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    i am asking all adventure riders using the 2.15 x21 Sun rims shod with TKC-80 90/90-21 tubeless tires that have been converted to tubeless by me or others to:

    1...PLEASE check your tire pressures,,,they should be in the 37-40psi range at ALL times...too low a pressure on these heavy bikes will make it easier to get flat spots and possibly lose air,,,,resulting in squirrely handling and/or loss of control,,,,pay attention if there is a pattern of your tire being low

    2...PLEASE check for flat spots on rim,,,,tubeless tires will often hold air after putting a flat spot on the rim,,,and then when leaned over or hitting another object just right will suddenly collapse and you'l have a handful of handling problems heading your way,,,ALWAYS install a tube in the interim,,, get those flat spots repaired ASAP and/or replace the rim/wheel,,,you are riding on a time bomb and deluding yourself by continuing to ride on any tubeless car or motorcycle wheel with bent lips/flat spots

    3..PLEASE PM/call me toll free 1-866-936-0232 and report any problems you may have experienced with the above tubeless tire /wire wheel combo,,,loss of air pressure over a given time period,,,unusual gashes in the tire itself...see this thread:
    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=104894

    3.your safety and well-being are paramount to me...help me help you come up with the reasons and solutions to these problems,,,woody
    #1
  2. sashapave

    sashapave riders on the strom Supporter

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    Thanks for the heads-up woody. It's nice to have vendors who care for our safety. :thumb

    -sasha
    #2
  3. murgatroid42

    murgatroid42 Great Adventurer

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    Woody, is the problem with the tire (as Esteban thinks), the wheels, the particular bike, or a combination of the above? I like the TKC80, but not if it there is a problem with it coming apart.

    Keep up updated as you get more info. :nod
    #3
  4. Django Loco

    Django Loco Banned

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    Thanks for the heads up Woody.
    Just a couple of questions about this.
    Does the problem appear to be with the sealed spoked wheel leaking air then
    the bead suddenly breaking due to shock and the lower pressure? Is the sealed wheel safe or will it leak under normal riding? Perhaps the rim design is not good for a tubeless type tire?

    Are there any other tubeless type knobbies that would be appropriate?
    Maybe some tougher ones? Contis suck, always have IMO.
    I know in the dirt world the heavy duty 4-ply tires are pretty damn tough and
    have saved alot of my rims over the years due in stiff sidewalls. (ie Metzeler Enduro 4's, some Dunlops)

    Is the Sun rim the problem? I had my old Tiger wheels sealed (I believe the stock spoked items were DID wheels) and hit stuff at high speeds. No dents.
    These were tubeless type wheels and ran tubeless tires but tubes were required due to the spokes. They weighed a ton but were strong as hell.
    I was running higher pressures, but not as high as you have suggested. I was running more like 30 front/34 rear because it was mostly paved with just a few dirt sections. No problems. Also did just dirt with lower pressures. No damaged rims and no pinch flats (before the conversion).

    BTW, I now run my Vstrom tires (stock cast wheels) at about 22 to 24 lbs. for off road and on one of my Baja trips hit an embedded rock at about 70 mph.
    Put very slight dent in the rim. Am I in danger of the tire De-beading due to
    this slight dent?

    I have several KTM 950 riding friends who aren't even aware that their wheels
    can be converted to tubeless, and a couple Tiger riders too (pre '05). I will send them your way if you still believe the tubeless conversion is viable. I first learned about this back in 1997 from a Triumph dealer in Australia. He used
    truck bed liner Goop to seal them up.

    Do you do the sealing yourself or contract it out?

    BTW, running 37 lbs. or 40 lbs. in the dirt ain't happening. You'd kill yourself.
    The most you'd ever want to run (unless your running Dakar) would be about
    26 lbs. IMO. The increased level of handling and control with the lower pressures is remarkable for any rider at any skill level.

    Any help appreciated.
    #4
  5. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    i haven't heard of one coming apart,,,but i have heard that they popped of the bead when deflated,,,NOTE!!!!,,both incidences the rims hit an object causing the the rim to get a good sized flat spot,,,one rider was doing 40 mph when he hit a rock,,,it also put a hole in the tire and instantly deflated,,,the other went off the road in to a ditch and hit something causing a big dent and tire to come off bead before stopping

    these tires pop on and off the bead quite easily are very soft and pliable,,very thin carcass,,,and this is with safety beaded rims!!

    remember both incidents were on 950 ktms on 2.15x21 Sun rims,,,,we have made these tubeless for years,,,albeit mostly on street bikes,,big harleys etc...i think that all these bikes have used street tires much stiffer than the TKC-80
    #5
  6. Jim Rowley

    Jim Rowley Rise above

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    Woody, you do awesome work. My new wheel looks great. Thanks a bunch.
    Jim.
    #6
  7. BeemerChef

    BeemerChef Wandering Homeless

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    Honeslty... what is there to like about the TKC 80 on the street? I understand being able to switch to dirt ASAP... but to what price?
    I tired a pair in AZ and was the worse riding experience I have ever had... on asphalt... Dirt? OK... but nothing to write home about...
    That is on a GS 1100 by the way...
    Just an opinion...
    Ara
    #7
  8. murgatroid42

    murgatroid42 Great Adventurer

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    Compared to a D606 front, the TKC-80 feels like a supermoto tire. Cornering, turn in, durability, and braking are far superior to a "real" DOT knobbie.
    #8
  9. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    folks are we talking apples to apples???

    the dilemna we are talking about relates to big dualsports using TKC_*) x 21'' tires and their safety handling characteristics at speed on pavement,,,their is no doubt in my mind that they work great in the dirt,,,but what's the haps on the pavement?????
    #9
  10. cRAsH

    cRAsH Banned

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    Been riding with the 21" on the GS for about 3 years now. It's always been very good to me.
    I rode from the Racetrack to Saline on one that had a bad un-patchable leak.
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    The leak was so bad that I had to stop every 10 minutes or so and pump it up. Although it got squirrely when it was totally flat, it never once came off the rim, and I think I hit a few rocks over that stretch...

    As far as performance on the pavement; it ain't a Tourance but I've always been satisfied with the handling, wet or dry. :dunno
    #10
  11. R-dubb

    R-dubb Dubbious Adventurer

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    My experience with the BMW 21" and TCK's is similar to cRAsH. I've had punctures that won't hold air well with a plug. Had to stop and refill frequently. No problem with the bead unseating even after miles with no air. The BMW wheel seems to have a very tight fit with the TKC, very tough to unseat. I now carry a tube on long trips just for extra insurance against badly behaved flats. I'm not worried so about the problem Woody describes on the beemer, even with a few flat spots. The tires seal so tight, it seems very unlikely, imo. The Sun rims may be a whole different story...

    -dubb
    #11
  12. Jim Rowley

    Jim Rowley Rise above

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    But at least you stopped to pump it up and you were aware of the problem, instead of riding on knowing something is wrong.:huh
    #12
  13. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    the folks at buchanan's confirmed my measurements of the 2.15 x21 Sun rim to be the same as the oem BMW 2.15x21 x-laced Behr rim,,profiles,,circumference and safety-bead specs

    the incident/accident occured doing 40 plus miles an hour on each occassion,,,,it's one thing to get a leak and the tire goes down gently and then you ride at a moderate pace,or nurse it home,,,,,

    HOWEVER,,,,did you all go over 40 plus mph with your low/flat tires????,,,will the TKC-80 stay on the rim then?????,,,and what if it loses pressure quickly ?????,,,,that's what we're curious about.

    my experience with front flats on these heavy bikes is that they get pretty uncontrolable ,,,,,,i've had tube type tires go flat and pop off the bead almost instantly,,,,but i've never had a tubeless tire pop off the bead at slower speeds,,,,,but these foks were doing over 40mph when they claim the tire popped off the bead

    another area of concern with the TKC-80x21'' is how thin the wall thickness is of the carcass,,,,this makes it extremely difficult to put plugs in that will be of real use to you all...and that's of course is one of the main reasons we use tubeless tires to begin with,,,quick on the trail patching

    BTW cRash's front tire IMHO needs a T-patch and heavy duty tube,,,we normally can patch the majority of tubeless tire punctures,,,BUT given how thin the carcass is on the TKC-80 x 21'',,,,i would now be very reluctant to return this tire to tubeless service!!!!

    here's some more info i posted in the g-spot forum

    http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2163756#post2163756
    #13
  14. LBZ-GS

    LBZ-GS RIP, Frank.

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    Sorry you had a bad experience but I can't say anything but excellent reviews on this tire. Now I do have it on a lighter 1200GS but my bud has had them on his 1150GS with no problems other than a couple of the rear knobs loosing some chunks at 2500 miles or so. I have hammered these tires in all sorts of conditions on and offroad. I can't believe how well they handle on the street. I am a fast rider on the street with my GS and have drug pegs with the TKC80's fitted on the bike. Knock on wood I never even have had the back end break loose on pavement. Just get them hot and they will rash just as easily as sportbike tires. I literally have left the mud and rocks offroad with the tire covered in mud and make a few turns easy to get them cleaned off a little and then off we go into sportbike mode with these tires. Now I would def. run an Anakee for long distance trips as the TKC's do roar a little bit but anything short of a long trip I will run the TKC's. I got 3500 miles out of the rear and the front was cupped slightly but would have lasted at least another 1000 or so. You can't go wrong with these tires. Now for the R100 peeps with these 21" fronts I can't comment on how well they do. But for the 1150's and the 1200's you can't go wrong!!! Just my 2 cents...Frank
    #14
  15. cRAsH

    cRAsH Banned

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    That was my experience even in the dirt at low speed. It was easy to tell when I needed air because the front got so squirrely.
    It was wasted for sure, the hole was on the corner of a knob. To get home we had to have Lizard Lee t-patch it and install a tube. Worked like a champ.

    I agree with you Woody, after seeing how thin the sidewall is on the 21" versus the 19" I'm having my doubts about continuing to run it on my bike.
    :patch

    #15
  16. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    we aren't quibbling about the 19''fronts or 17'' rears,,,,we've never had any problems with these,,,and everyone has their likes and dislikes as you can see,,

    what we are trying to find out ,,is what happens to the TKC-80 x21'' tubeless version on your 21''tubeless BMW x-laced wheels or 21'' sun rims that have been made tubeless...two people have reported that the tire popped off their beads on the sun rims,,,BTW,,,both riders were on ktm-950s but that's not theissue,,,,one hit a rock at 40mph that dented his rim and punctured the tube,,the other claims the tire popped off the bead at 70mph.....causing his crash
    #16
  17. R-dubb

    R-dubb Dubbious Adventurer

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    I hear you on the concern, but keep in mind how many Airheads have been using 21" TKC's on Behr rims for many, many years now. We don't hear stories about their tires loosing air suddenly and popping off. Something is different about this.
    #17
  18. woody's wheel works

    woody's wheel works Built to Last

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    <TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD class=alt1>Another split & Leak on a TKC-80 21" Tubeless Tire

    <HR style="COLOR: #575757" SIZE=1><!-- / icon and title --><!-- message -->Here is the leaking tubeless tire involved in a customer's accident. The tire lost air at the rate of 2+ psi/day.you can see the foam oozing out the crack/slice/split,,,no one noticed the little slit because it didn't bubble when put under water and was fairly camouflaged by the dirt like in the surrounding knobs,,,,we were already past it when i noticed the foam under the magnifying glass,,,,and consequently used a scrub brush to reveal the actual slit,,,didn't di g much more so don't know if something is lurking in there,,,it's stuff like this that can provide you with a not so happy experience
    [​IMG]l;
    <!-- / message -->
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    <TABLE class=tborder cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" align=center border=0><TBODY><TR><TD class=thead style="FONT-WEIGHT: normal"><!-- status icon and date -->[​IMG] 12-18-2005, 03:36 PM </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>orks​
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    #18
  19. Phi1osopher

    Phi1osopher metaphysician

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    I know this is an old thread, but I experienced this in 2016. I was on a Honda XR650l, slightly over loaded with gear, traveling 80mph on the highway in Mexico; I was on my way home from a 3,000ish mile on/off pavement trip. The front tire wast a TKC80 90/90-21 tube type, inflated to about 30psi. I had a flat tire earlier that day and put in a new inner tube (I checked the inside of the tire and it was clean). About 50 miles after getting back on the road the inner tube spontaneously failed, rupturing in half along a seam while traveling approx 80mph. The front tire almost instantly came off the rim, and it was... exciting. Honestly, it scared the shit out of me, but I managed to stop and not crash, patched the old tube, put it back together and drove home with no further excitement from the tires.

    I had a 2nd front tire failure on a TKC80, curiously, also in Mexico. This second time was on a KTM 690 Enduro, also running a 90/90-21 front wheel in a tubless configuration on a stock KTM 21" front rim. However this time was my fault: I struck a rock in a turn, had a high-speed layover which tore a knob off the front tire, completely deflating it. I was running the "Tubliss" system (which I very much like), and the tire stayed on the rim.

    Don't know if this helps anything, but I thought I'd share my experience.
    #19
  20. nk14zp

    nk14zp Long timer

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    Are you running a 2.15 rim with tubliss?
    #20