Washington State Dual Sport motorcycles also need ORV Tags

Discussion in 'Pacific Northwet - Where it's green. And wet.' started by das Rider, Jan 16, 2007.

  1. das Rider

    das Rider Professional Hobbyist

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    As some of you may know I bought a Yamaha Rhino and put tracks on it for use on snowmobile trails. I was told by a State Park Ranger at a Sno-Park that I was not legal because my Rhino was registered as an ORV. What he suggested was I needed a "dual registration", ORV and Snowmobile.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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    So I called the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> (Department of Licensing) in <st1:place><st1:City>Olympia</st1:City>, <st1:State>Washington</st1:State></st1:place> to find out how to get my Rhino licensed as a snowmobile. I was told this is easy to do; it's just like dual motorcycle registration. I asked what he meant by dual motorcycle registration and he told me, dual sport motorcycles with a street license ALSO need an ORV license to ride in ORV areas. This is from the <st1:stockticker><st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker></st1:stockticker> in <st1:place><st1:City><st1:place><st1:City>Olympia</st1:City></st1:City>, <st1:State><st1:State>Washington</st1:State></st1:place></st1:State></st1:place>.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    He said officers could write tickets for no ORV license even to a street legal dual sport bike in an ORV area. WOW, I had no idea and I bet you didn't either.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Street legal motorcycles (dual sport bikes with license plates) ALSO require an ORV license in ORV areas in the state of <st1:State><st1:place><st1:State><st1:place>Washington</st1:place></st1:State></st1:place></st1:State>.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    That's the bad news; the good news is it looks like I can get my Rhino licensed as a snowmobile. I don’t know what I’m going to do about an ORV license for my dual sport bike. I guess I’ll buy one.<o:p></o:p>
    #1
  2. robdogg

    robdogg turnip truck driver Supporter

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    huh? hold the phone here.. did you happen to get a reference? or follow this up with someone else? (I know of a couple of forest service people I can call and verify later) If this is true, it has to be new.. so new that no one else has heard about it because I don't see anything on any of the typical local forums that usually have lots of ORV activists and discussions. (local forums on Thumpertalk, KTMTalk, the NMA website etc.)

    I've also seen rangers and sheriffs on the trails at Tahuya and Taenum as recently as last summer. In fact, there were rangers at both the Dirty Face dual sport last June and the Easton Dual Sport in September as well and both those rides had off road portions.. and not a peep about it from them about this

    Not disputing what you heard, but it sounds a little suspect to me.. it sure wouldn't be the first time a civilian worker (possibly a newbie or whatever) got the facts wrong.
    #2
  3. robdogg

    robdogg turnip truck driver Supporter

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    Ok, after re-reading your message, and doing a little research, I think what we have here is a definition issue. A dual registered bike is NOT the same thing as a street legal (i.e. from the factory) motorcycle (my bad for going ballistic)

    Here's a good explanation I got from a thread on another forum.

    So while that might not be the 100% gospel on this issue, I think what your DOL person said now makes sense.. in light of what defines a dual registered bike. Still, it sounds like it probably is a new requirement.. Oregon went that way a couple of years ago I think.. and there's been rumors that we would be facing the same thing.. but it must be really new, since they weren't saying squat about it at the Easton ride.

    but man, don't scare people like that.. m'kay?

    :D
    #3
  4. GroundChuck

    GroundChuck Been here awhile

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    <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    Street legal motorcycles (dual sport bikes with license plates) ALSO require an ORV license in ORV areas in the state of <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:State><st1:place><st1:State><st1:place>Washington</st1:place></st1:State></st1:place></st1:State>.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p>Thanks for info, I will keep watching this thread to see what you guys find out. I got off my sport bike and on to my KLR to stop getting tickets:wink: </o:p>
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  5. das Rider

    das Rider Professional Hobbyist

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    This guy knew what I wanted to do, and it was a State Park Ranger who suggested "dual registration". The <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> guy said, the Ranger is right, what you need is a dual registration, like is required for some motorcycles. I said I own a street bike, a dual sport bike (street legal dirt bike) and several off-road bikes with ORV licenses. Where would I ever need dual registration? He said the dual sport bike needs an ORV license for riding in ORV areas. The street license is for street, the ORV license is for off-road.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    It doesn't surprise me that law enforcement doesn't know WA State Licensing requirements for a subject like "dual registration", especially Forest Service guys I.e. Federal guys.<o:p></o:p>
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    This didn't sound new; dual registration (for motorcycles) was the option I needed. It sounds like law enforcement doesn't know the law, which is too often the case. The laws are too complicated.<o:p></o:p>
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    When I moved here I was told (by motorcycle riders, not the <st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> in <st1:City><st1:place>Olympia</st1:place></st1:City>) that you either needed a street license or an ORV license to ride off road. <st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> in <st1:City><st1:place>Olympia</st1:place></st1:City> said that is WRONG, you need both if you ride in ORV areas.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    I'm just passing along what I found out. My guess is the guys in <st1:City><st1:place>Olympia</st1:place></st1:City>, the people who license stuff know more about license requirements than a law enforcement officer from any branch of service.<o:p></o:p>
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    It does not surprise me that no one knows this. And, I could have been given bad intel.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p> </o:p>
    You won’t get a legal answer from any ORV group. If you want to know what WA License requirements are you have to call <st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> in <st1:City><st1:place>Olympia</st1:place></st1:City>.<o:p></o:p>
    #5
  6. markjenn

    markjenn Long timer

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    Color me still skeptical. In audits, 40% of the tax advice handed out on the IRS's toll free tax advice number is flat wrong and these guys are brain surgeons compared to the typicaly guy you'll get on the phone in Olympia.

    Proof is someone actually going down and doing a dual-registration of a street-titled dual-sport. I bet they license bureau place would look at you like you've lost your mind.

    And even if true, I'd still ride my street-licensed dual-sport in ORV areas without a separate a ORV license. I've been stopped and talked to Rangers several times and they've never said I needed both.

    - Mark
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  7. das Rider

    das Rider Professional Hobbyist

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    I'm on hold with DOL Olympia now to get more info and hopefully a sitting in law or regulations about dual registration.
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  8. robdogg

    robdogg turnip truck driver Supporter

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    I HAVE called them (on other issues) and I have found that you can get three different answers from three different people.. but glad you pointed this all out.. I personally have no problem getting an ORV tag (or two or three) as I feel it helps support our hobby (well, some of the money, some of the time) but if Mr Ranger at a dual sport event with 150 bikes doesn't check for em, I doubt anyone should have any real concern. Unless, like I said, this is a new regulation and/or, a redefinition of what a "dual registered motorcycle" is

    And I wouldn't presume ORV groups to be ignorant on this issue... most of them do their homework and have inside sources to people higher on the totem pole then the ones manning the phone lines.
    #8
  9. robdogg

    robdogg turnip truck driver Supporter

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    me thinks that has more to do with throttle control (or lack thereof) then a licensing issue :evil
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  10. robdogg

    robdogg turnip truck driver Supporter

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    :poser
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  11. robdogg

    robdogg turnip truck driver Supporter

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    good luck.. and don't take our (my) questioning on this the wrong way.. I think we all need to know these things and it's good to visit these issues once in a while..
    #11
  12. KCander

    KCander Cactus Asswipe

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    My DRZ-S had both ORV stickers and a license plate on it when I purchased it. I took it to the local DOL and they said that yes, I need to have both kinds of registration to ride the bike off-road...I'd heard otherwise.

    So I checked the RCW...Here's one thing I ran across:

    <!--RCWCITE-->RCW 46.09.050<!--RCWCITEEND-->
    <!--RCWCAPTION-->Vehicles exempted from ORV use permits and tags.<!--RCWCAPTIONEND-->
    <!--RCWHEADEREND--><!--RCWSLTEXT-->ORV use permits and ORV tags shall be required under the provisions of this chapter except for the following:

    (1) Off-road vehicles owned and operated by the United States, another state, or a political subdivision thereof.

    (2) Off-road vehicles owned and operated by this state, or by any municipality or political subdivision thereof.

    (3) Off-road vehicles operated on agricultural lands owned or leased by the ORV owner or operator.

    (4) Off-road vehicles owned by a resident of another state that have a valid ORV permit or vehicle license issued in accordance with the laws of the other state. This exemption shall apply only to the extent that a similar exemption or privilege is granted under the laws of that state.

    (5) Off-road vehicles while being used for search and rescue purposes under the authority or direction of an appropriate search and rescue or law enforcement agency.

    (6) Vehicles which are licensed pursuant to chapter 46.16 RCW or in the case of nonresidents, vehicles which are validly licensed for operation over public highways in the jurisdiction of the owner's residence.


    This means that if your bike is legally licensed, you're good to go off-road. Do vehicles like Jeeps or trucks that drive on some of our ORV land have ORV tags?
    #12
  13. KCander

    KCander Cactus Asswipe

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    and furthermore, from NMAoffroad.org:

    In the state of Washington, your motorcycle must have current ORV tags or be street-legal and licensed for you to legally ride in off-road areas on State or Federal land.
    You are legal on trail systems open to motorized use on State or Federal land, with either ORV tags or street licensing.

    and more yet again:

    Street Licenses -
    A street licensed motorcycle is legal in any ORV area, be it on State or Federal land. You can get a street license for stock dual sport motorcycles, for example the Suzuki DR-Z400S, or Honda XR650L. In some cases, off-road designated machines have been successfully licensed for street use, and most European brands (KTM, GasGas, TM and Husqvarna) may be licensed as well.



    If anybody tells you you need to have both, they don't know what they're talking about!!! As I said, even the people at the DOL don't know the laws!
    #13
  14. das Rider

    das Rider Professional Hobbyist

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    I'm still waiting for an answer. The last guy I talked to thought both were required and was looking in the "Operating Guide" for a reference. Then he thought he found an exemption (maybe RCW 46.09.050). Then he asked a liaison officer, but didn't agree with the answer he got so he sent an email "upstairs" to try to get to the bottom of the issue.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
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    I'd have to agree with the reference to RCW 46.09.050 in this case. It is an exemption in State Law to the ORV license requirement. I'll let you know what the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> says when they call back and if I hear otherwise I will bring up RCW 46.09.050.<o:p></o:p>
    #14
  15. das Rider

    das Rider Professional Hobbyist

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    No offense taken, like you said, we all need to know this stuff. I'm just reporting what I was told, but I now believe it was wrong. The important thing is to know for sure and to know the law.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    #15
  16. DeFens

    DeFens Been here awhile

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  17. das Rider

    das Rider Professional Hobbyist

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    Here's the latest news. The <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> called back and said there is an exemption from the ORV license requirement for street legal motorcycles, i.e. RCW 46.09.050. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    BUT, I was told the <st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker> came up with motorcycle "dual registration" (street license and ORV license) because State Park Rangers had been issuing tickets to dual sport bikes (with street licenses) operating on ORV trails. I am not sure how long ago this was.<o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    It seems (I was told by <st1:stockticker>DOL</st1:stockticker>) that WA State Parks & Recreation operates under a different set of RCWs when it comes to State Owned ORV lands. It was suggested that I call WA State Parks & Recreation to find out if they require dual registration for dual sport bikes operating on State owned ORV trails. I could not get through today, will call again tomorrow.<o:p></o:p>
    #17
  18. Road Rash

    Road Rash Infamous Supporter

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    Here in Oregon you do have to have a ORV tag if your in a designated ORV area, street legal or not, they are not real strict about in the woods, but in the sand VERY strict...................................I have to have an ORV tag on my Blazer (and a red flag) just to tow my sandrail onto the sand, but it's only 10 bucks for two years and it goes to the cause (keeping up the ORV areas).
    #18
  19. mcnut

    mcnut Long timer

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    I don’t know all the statutes, but it has been my understanding for more than 20 years (since the inception of the ORV permit) that ORV permits are not required on plated bikes. You must have one or the other, but not both. A very small fixed percentage of all license plate tax and road gas tax goes to the ORV fund. It’s a little complicated but the state calculates the % of highway gas and % of off-road miles a street plated motor vehicle spends off-road and gives that % of the tax money to the ORV fund each year. The only dedicated ORV area I have been to was the old <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:smarttags" /><st1:place><st1:placeName>Thurston </st1:placeName><st1:placeType>County </st1:placeType><st1:placeName>ORV </st1:placeName><st1:placeType>Park</st1:placeType></st1:place> down by <st1:place><st1:placeName>Capital </st1:placeName><st1:placeType>Forest</st1:placeType></st1:place> (now closed) where they charged a separate entrance fee.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:eek:ffice:eek:ffice" /><o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    One argument for dual registration is that the % of the street licensing tax is so small that very few $$ from each cycle go to the off-road fund. Also those $$ go to a more general fund which is often raided for other uses. All of the ORV permit $$ go direct to a dedicated ORV fund and consequently ORV projects.:clap <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Das, I think your problem is somewhat unique because of the nature of your Rhino. I don’t know of any plated snowmobiles or snowmobiles using an ORV permit. The fact you were operating it from a snowmobile permit funded snow-park on trails maintained and groomed with snowmobile permit money probably left you out in the cold. :D I think if you were not operating from a snow-park on say DNR roads (where you don’t have to be street legal) you would have been fine with just the ORV tag snow or no snow. These officers know where the funding for thire position comes from and in the winter it’s the snowmobile permit fund that keeps them in a job.:eek1 <o:p></o:p>
    <o:p></o:p>
    Bruce<o:p></o:p>
    #19
  20. das Rider

    das Rider Professional Hobbyist

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    You are correct Bruce about the Rhino. My trouble is because of the wrong type of license on the Rhino for that area. I bought the Sno-Park passes (both motorized and non-motorized) and had them displayed in my truck windshield. The Sno-Park Pass is for the vehicle you leave in the parking lot.

    I was told if I registered the Rhino as a snowmobile it would be allowed in the Sno-Parks and on the trials. Today I was told by DOL that I can license the Rhino as a snowmobile and keep the ORV license at the same time. We'll see if that happens tomorrow.

    I could ride the Rhino in an ORV area on tracks in the snow with the current ORV license. Maybe I'll find a place to do that. It's just that the Sno-Parks and snowmobile trails are so close, accessible, and scenic.

    I'm well aware that you get different answers when you ask different people the same question. I'm just looking for the right answer, if there is one.
    #20