What is the major hurdle in the acceptance of electric vehicles: range, recharging time, price?

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    I get where you're coming from. It appears to be 'green technology is not a perfect solution.'

    Duh.

    It is valuable to explain why, to help people understand something that is both very new and very important. It helps green technologies become closer to perfect, which they are doing steadily. But, even if not intended, you come off as a bit of a detractor. The last thing we need is to feed those who will take any comment and turn it against technologies to which they are ideologically opposed. Being in the solar industry I'm sure you've encountered plenty of those.

    Be honest, but don't feed the trolls.
  2. Lesharoturbo

    Lesharoturbo Nerdly Adventurer

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    You are correct. I sometimes expect people to understand the subject and not give a lot of detail. Did not mean to make troll fodder.

    I am NOT a detractor, just a realist. I see where technology is, and where it is going. Unfortunately, the hype machine is in full swing and leads the public to believe we are far more advanced than we are in reality.

    Current highest efficiency of PV panels is about 24% with most in the 15-20% range. Max theoretical is about 38% efficiency for crystalline silicon. We have not found a better material yet for PV panels, a few contenders, but no good replacements. We are on our way, but still have a long row to hoe.
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  3. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    The future must include some sort of (sustainable) nuclear option to serve as a baseline. Current 50-year old nuclear designs are not an option. My bet is on Thorium reactors rather than fusion. Keep an eye on the Indians. And given that, electricity is only going to get more important as peak oil starts to have its effect on the economy.
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  4. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Electric motorcycles purchased during calendar year 2017 are eligible to receive the 10% E-motorcycle Federal Tax Credit for up to $2,500.
    In addition, some states also provide tax credits, rebates, and other incentives with an EM purchase.

    It has not been announced if electric motorcycles purchased in 2018 are eligible yet.
  5. WYO George

    WYO George I have no idea

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    I skipped from post one to here so I'm sure I missed out on some life changing banter that always accompanies such threads. For me, my answer is:

    Why?
    1. Instant torque
    2. I like tech stuff

    Why not? (easier summed up in a few sentences than a list)

    I live fairly remote in Nowhere, Wyoming and don't commute. I travel a lot and don't have the patience to stop and plug into an outlet and wait patiently for a recharge only to repeat the same an hour or so later. So really it's range and recharge time. I like long distance riding and from putting on my signal to exit the interstate to canceling my signal after merging back on a typical gas stop takes me 10-12 minutes.


    If I were an urban dweller I'd probably have one for my commute just because I like tech gadgets and the instant propulsion is kinda cool. Since I'll never live in a town of more than 500 people it's kinda irrelevant for me. I may one day have an electric trials bike for playing around in my fields, but that'll happen when I run out of a place to store all my extra money.
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  6. Lesharoturbo

    Lesharoturbo Nerdly Adventurer

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    This is where the vanity is electric powered vehicles lies: a significant portion of the population can't use the vehicles due to the limits you stated. In time, as the technology progresses and infrastructure progresses, electrics will be everywhere. Until then, it will be like the really days off ICE vehicles versus horse drawn carriages; a novelty for most of the population.
  7. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    What makes new technology take so long to get a toe-hold is peoples' innate resistance to change. Regarding electric cars, anyone today who owns two cars would probably be better off if the errand-runner was electric. That is many, many millions of cars. But EVs have a tiny percentage of that market. It's not the viability of the vehicles, it's us poor stupid humans who can't get out of our own way.

    With EMs it's different, since most riders have only one bike. I don't have the time to tour now, so my only use is commuting and short runs. That will change soon. I'm looking at getting an EM and keeping my Ninja 250 for longer trips. (Yes, a Ninjette can actually be quite a fine tourer.) But EMs are likely to be slower to catch on. They're less utilitarian.

    So I get what you're saying, but I wouldn't use the word 'novelty.' To me it seems more like fear of the unknown. That's why education on new tech is so necessary.

    "We have met the enemy and he is us."
    Pogo
  8. Lesharoturbo

    Lesharoturbo Nerdly Adventurer

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    You have a valid point. However, I think the number of people who are resistant to change out of fear are far less than those who can see the application, but it falls short of their needs.

    I have 4 cars and a motorcycle. I also have 4 drivers who work and new driver who is still on school. The "second car" argument does not work well in my case as we would be stuck somewhere with a depleted battery. One out of 4 cars as an electric may work, but would be passed around a lot due to no one person having a relatively short commute at the same time. Logistically it is difficult right now.

    Once electric cars and motorcycles have a decent range, (300-400 for cars , 150-200 for motorcycles) and a price in line with the vehicles I purchase (20K-25K) I will be looking to change. Motorcycles I shop the bottom, so less than 7K for those OTD.
  9. fastring

    fastring Been here awhile

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    Range and recharge time. I commute in an EV ('15 BMW i3) and even with the car its range is limiting when I need to check on something for work on the other side of town. For 90% of my commuting need, the i3's 75ish mile range is sufficient but 125 would be a big help and 200 a game changer in how I use that car. I've done a test ride on a ZERO, really like the little maintenance of it but it would need more range and faster charge options. The J1772 is an option only on a few models and it would need to be standard for me to charge at work or on the road. It seems that zero is fixated on the common 110v form factor and increase charging by using Qty=2+ 110v instead of just using the L2 standard for EVs (J1772).

    6 months in with the EV and I am sold on the concept and wont ever go back for a commuter. Beyond the commuter, the EV options arent there, IMO. I read about the guy touring on a ZERO cross country but my type of touring is 600-1000 miles per day and until L3 charging is common, that wont happen on an EV moto.
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  10. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    Take a look at plugshare.com and you may find more L3 charging than you were aware of. Depends on your area.

    I think the Chevy Bolt has reached the tipping point for range. 200+ miles should be way more than anyone needs in a day unless they do some serious traveling. 200 covers everything including the rare surprise, which makes it a fully reliable daily driver. (And reports indicate the Bolt is a damn fine car.) The Tesla III is there too, and others will soon follow or get left behind.

    I totally agree about Zero. They need to catch up with respect to their charging options. L1 is fine if commuting is all you do, but having only L1 means commuting and short hops is all you can do. Their optional L2 is too expensive, shouldn't need new bodywork, and should be easily retrofittable. If they standardized on L2 and 6 Kw charging the price would come way down and they'd have a bike that is fully usable and up-to-date.
  11. chasbmw

    chasbmw Long timer

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    I’m from the UK, I have had a BMW i3 for 4 months, it has a range Extender engine that you use to alleviate range anxiety.

    What I really like about it is that I haven’t had so much fun on 4 wheels since I was 17, it’s such fine to drive, silent and instant response.

    It has a range of around 200 miles using the range extender, I don’t often use public chargers but charge at home for a cost of around 1.5p per mile, (compared to ICE cars @35mpg at around 13p per mile). We have high gasoline taxes in Europe! Nissan Leafs, Renault Zoe’s and I3s seem to be the most popular EVs over here at the moment and are all on backorder. There is a definite move away from diesel.

    250/300 mile range and prices for a four door hatchback at around £20K without any subsidy and EVs will just walk away with the market. I have a bet with a mate that EVs will taker over 50% of new car sales in the UK in 2025. I might lose the bet but it will be close.

    I am told that Gasoline takes 6 KWH of energy to drill refine and transport it, my car will do 20 miles on that.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
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  12. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    EV/EM's are their own road block to acceptance. The only thing EV do better is potentially be better for the environment and are cheaper to fuel.
    Until they are better at being vehicles then a ICE vehicle, they will not be anything more then niche market items. Cars as a proven concept became wide spread after about 30 yrs (1900-1930's) , back then I think was as much or more resistance to change compared with today. The electric car as a proven concept has been around as long as cars since about 1900, yet it has not become the primary type of vehicle. The reason is the same now as it was 100 years ago.
  13. cecilturtle

    cecilturtle Adventurer

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    The single major hurdle in EV adoption is making the mental shift. They are fundamentally different, and in many ways not directly comparing to ICE vehicles. If you make the comparison to ICE in the typical way you compare combustion engine vehicles, EVs are inherently framed in a negative light. Your fundamental viewpoint must change.

    EV's are quite literally everything that combustion engines are designed for but can never achieve. Linear power, always in the power band, easy to use, quiet, smooth. Not a single manufacturer designs an engine to be louder, or vibrate more, or to have a narrow powerband.

    There simply isn't a more pure connection from your wrist to the ground.

    "Starting", idling, clutches, gears, etc are all cludges to work around the imperfections of the combustion engine. It's terrible.

    The *only* thing ICE has over electrics at the moment is range and quicker refueling. And both are changing quickly, and both aren't relevant to probably 70% of regular usage (depending what kind of rider you are). It's actually really annoying for me now when I have to "go get gas". Why can't it fuel up in my garage?
  14. cecilturtle

    cecilturtle Adventurer

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    I don't know if you have an EV, but I'm guessing not. I see it the exact opposite - EV's are inherently better than ICE in every way, except the range or speed of refueling. See my response above, but the properties of the EV are the never-achievable but always strived-for goal of combustion engines. Throw reliability and low maintenance on top of it and it's a no brainer. Combustion engines, to me at this point (owning multiple EV's on both two and four wheels), are as archaic as steam powered vehicles. Unless I need to travel 1000 miles in a day, I can't think of a single reason I would choose a combustion engine.
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  15. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    A basic honda or Toyota car or almost any modern car is pretty dam reliable, change oil and filters a few times a year and drive for two decades.
    Range and recharge times were also a issue for them 100 yrs ago. Still a issue today, while ICE engines are pretty darn good. Comparing EV's to ICE makes perfect sense, because that is what they are competing against We are not comparing drive trains directly, just the ease of use and the utility of the vehicle. If a Honda accord took 4 hours to recharge and had a range of only 200 miles, the complaints would be the same.
    I agree EV/ Em's have a lot of potential and achieved upside as far as performance and reliability goes, but they are held back by what they cant do, not what they can do. I would like a EM trail bike just for the quiet and simplicity, and smooth power, but no EM yet exists that can come close the all round performance of my 18 yr old XR 400 built with 30 year old tech. Simple parameters that are easily achieved by all bike manufactures today, I will even spot you KTM prices of $10,000. 1. Decent power to weight 30hp and under 300lbs 2. 80-100 mile range/ fill up. 3. decent modern suspension (my bike doesn't even have that) 4. Able to refuel/ recharge quickly out of the back of a pick-up ( I would even spot you 30min) 5. Available new for 10-12K and used for 3K.
  16. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    just to be clear, i like the idea of EV/EM's But in the USA anyway, a F-150 is the most popular vehicle sold, EV's do not yet come close to what a basic F-150 can do.
  17. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    The major hurdle is lack of infrastructure. In Taiwan, Gogoro has built hundreds of "charging stations" where instead of waiting for a charge you simply replace your batteries with fresh ones in the station. Think of it as battery sharing. Takes about 4 minutes to "fill up". Most of Taiwan is now covered by the Gogoro infrastructure. They have also launched in both Berlin and Paris as well as Japan, with rumor of San Francisco being high on their list. Honda too has announced a similar replace-as-you-go model. It will be interesting to see who "wins" this race. Key for me would be if the shared batteries could also be used in other items: e.g. lawnmowers, snowblowers, tractors, ATVs, etc.
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  18. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    Might work for scooters and/or ebikes, but for a limited time.

    Simple vehicles make the swap easier. The main issue is that battery tech is changing way too fast to be able to keep any 'standard' alive for long enough to amortize the infrastructure to support it. There are other issues too, like either only one manufacturer being able to supply the technology, or having multiple manufacturers hamstrung by a common technology that can't advance because it needs to meet the standard.

    IMHO a much better solution is to bring dump charging mainstream.
  19. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    ^ great points ctromley. If a standardized high-density swappable battery system can’t be utilized by long range EM/EV’s, rapid charging should become the ubiquitous solution for all electrics. More sensible in the long run for the reasons you’ve stated.
  20. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    How come city buses are not now all electric? They have very limited range and set routes, low speed, constant duty cycle, and always return to the same location at the end of a shift. Sounds perfect for a electric vehicle.
    I still like the idea of energized roads of some sort, at least for interstates.