What is the major hurdle in the acceptance of electric vehicles: range, recharging time, price?

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    I have here sitting on my desk a battery charger than can charge nearly any size battery from AAA to 25650 -- using any chemistry from NICD to LiFePo. It not only is possible to create universal charging stations for different chemistries but it can be done today with today's technology -- and it could easily be future proofed by merely enabling uploading new profiles to the charger. So while we wait for universal dump chargers (agree -- a great idea), all we need in the interim is to agree on is a universal charging interface similar to the way small batteries have evolved into various niches. The two will eventually compliment each other. It doesn't need to be either/or.
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  2. falcn

    falcn Squidless Soul Supporter

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    Barriers:
    Price
    Range
    Charging

    I really want one for commuting and taking with me on camping trips. Problem is the ability to charge when off-grid. I have a solar set-up on my van, but it isn't enough to charge an electric bike. We typically don't camp where there is electricity. I guess I could get a quiet generator, but that kind of defeats the purpose.

    I know an electric bike would be GREAT for my work commute. My wife's too.
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  3. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    Some sort of standardization will be needed. Perhaps too many options are what is holding back the development of batteries and charging systems.
    Engineers do their best when they are put in a box. Give them free range and they become "artists" and often come up with crap.
  4. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    All great points and I agree with them. My concerns with battery swapping aren't so much with the battery chemistries, but the mechanical packaging (including vehicle interface) and possible electronic and communication (with the vehicle) changes that come with new and better batteries. Motorcycles and scooters are very compact and tightly integrated vehicles. If you have a new battery but limit it in terms of packaging, you very likely are not left with an optimal design. Maybe you can get away with that for a generation or two, but it will catch up to you.

    Case in point - Tesla is now using 2170 battery cells instead of the ubiquitous 18650 cell. I'm not sure why that format provides an advantage, but apparently it's worth a substantial investment in new production infrastructure. If you tried to make that change in a small scooter battery in a packaging standard you couldn't change, would very likely have dead space left over in the box and not get maximum range, or not be able to optimize the system by moving system voltage up or down a bit, or other compromises. Or the standard might be a perfect choice for the new battery, but that would be a very unlikely coincidence.
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  5. Solarbronco

    Solarbronco Long timer Supporter

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    The only hurdle for me is range. I want an Alta EX dualsport. But the 40 mile range just won't do it for me. Im not really interested in a street only bike, those adventures are boring as hell.

    If I could run my bike off farts, I could circumnavigate the globe.
  6. vicster

    vicster Long timer

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    With me it comes down to price. To get the range and power I want, it's $16K+, and as near as I can tell that's with no ABS, TC, or cruise. The range would be fine for 90% of the riding I do, but I just don't feel the value is there in the bike itself. Maybe a test ride would change my mind?
  7. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Since the eGrom in Lithium is $2K, a lot of people can afford them.
  8. vicster

    vicster Long timer

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    Since I live in the country, am 66 years old and 6'7" tall, the eGrom is of less than zero (ha!) use to me. Which is why my post reads with ME it comes down to price.
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  9. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Haha, noted! Clever pun!

    How about the zero-looking Sur-Ron at $3200? Not as many zero's on the invoice on that, sur-ly.

    Imo, at your age, money shouldn't really be worth grommeling about .. we now know you're very tall, but Life is Short, and being on an EM makes us young again (anybody find the study on telomers and bikes, yet?). COPD will kill more old people than anything else, according to a public health nurse's lecture, so I want more Lives Per Gallon (the book title) -- at least up to 9 lives. So, any ride with an exhaust will make us shorter ..lived. This is no tall tale!

    My experience was that the Currie Flyer scooter gave me more smiles per gallon than any 2-wheeler. Practical range was 4 kms or less.
  10. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Please do some research -- running a vehicle off "farts" and such, has been done many times.

    Look up Solar Taxi and the like. Btw, I've seen the Solar Taxi up close.
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  11. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Knew someone who carried a small Honda or Yamaha genset on his 1500-watt electric scooter. Another pulled it on a trailer.

    Just think out of the box. Use Law of Attraction.
  12. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    Can't charge at work with a 50-foot cord????
  13. EvrythingAwesom

    EvrythingAwesom Long timer

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    My experience with ebikes, electric vehicles, electric moto's points to the BMS and battery chargers being the real, real-world, problem vs progress. Theoretical perfection, on paper, fails in real world, e.g. the US designed Ego-Cycle-II electric scooter, made in Taiwan; or the early-Lithium-days US-assembled "Native" electric scooter with a BMS made by a US mil supplier, looked great on paper, but the board's installation would, of course, cause trace cracks -- diagnosed in seconds, by an amateur.

    For example, vibration, as already posted.

    Let a thousand amateur ebike inventors bloom .. see how this is done, in Endless Sphere.

    In ES, read the posts on the recent corporate failure of Bionx, a General Motors partner, and the real cause of its receivership. Bionx with millions $$$ in backing, and part of the Magna group, apparently had a "shitty" BMS. BMS is very complicated subject matter, and most are shit. I built some primitive ones looong time ago.


    The Tesla EV is an anomaly in the long history of EV failures.

    Someone here already mentioned Tesla EV's series-parallel pack and how bad cells are cut-off .. genius.
  14. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    I'm a bit late to the party here, but being a product development engineer I had to comment.

    1. You don't standardize in a technology that is in its rapid growth phase. Sorry, but that would be nuts. It would amount to walling off all but a few potential paths to optimizing that technology, and because we are so low on the learning curve right now we have no flippin' clue where or when that optimal state (actually just a near-leveling off of a still rising performance curve) might be reached. The end result is that we would standardize on a technology that leaves WAY too much on the table. Why would anyone do that?

    Battery technology is moving rapidly on several fronts: Evolution of current tech including packaging, improvements in processing, incremental advances in electrode formulation, etc. And solid state, a whole different approach to construction. And different chemistries. And proton batteries, which take 'different chemistry' to a whole new level. And more. On which solution would you have us standardize, and on what projections are you making your choice? Who wins and who loses due to your choice? What advantages do we forfeit due to your choice? How many other people in the position of deciding such things would make different choices and why?

    The only viable solutions for a technology in its growth phase are to accept artificial stagnation in development in some areas (by standardizing), or rapid obsolescence of hardware as advances are made, or to make any devices that interface with the developing component (batteries in this case) as adaptable and/or variable as possible. All are costly. Which approach is less costly long term is hard to know. If your choice is to accept stagnation it behooves the decision-makers to understand how long they can survive doing so. Those choosing to advance with the tech need some idea where the tech is going at the moment they start a development project, and to remain flexible throughout.

    2. Engineering is a highly creative endeavor, but going 'free range' as you call it is antithetical to the whole process. Engineers do best when they are given proper performance parameters to design to. That almost never happens. Requirements are usually vague, ill-informed, wildly optimistic, get changed and added to mid-project ("feature creep"), etc. What you call 'giving them free range' more often than not is us having to solve unexpected problems caused by those poorly-defined requirements - without affecting the planned release date. Those are solutions which, if planned for from the start, could have been integrated seamlessly. The farther into the project you are when everyone (including Sales and top executives) admits the requirements are crap, the more clunky the solutions become. Sometimes your market is so new or changing so rapidly that you simply can't know what the requirements should be, so you take your best shot and adapt as conditions change. Bottom line, your assumptions about engineers could not possibly be more wrong.
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  15. dirt hokie

    dirt hokie Long timer

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    Why do you think I was attacking engineers, your point 2, in more detail makes the same point I was making about engineers needing a box.
    The box is well defined goals, which you then complain about management or market forces changing resulting in not so elegant solutions.
    That is my point.
    Your first point, I will concede, the market is to young for much standardization, which should be free market driven as it happens.
  16. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    This is where it gets murky.

    In fields like battery science, it is generally the research scientists, not the engineers who are blazing new trails and learning what can and cannot be done. In a situation like that, a "box" is exactly the worst thing you can put on the researchers. The whole point of what they're doing is to break through the boxes that already exist.

    What complicates matters is that engineers are usually working right alongside the scientists, solving new problems to make the equipment and processes that make the research possible. And then taking the lead when when a promising concept needs to be commercialized. Their actions can and should get better definition. And sometimes, the engineers are the ones doing the basic research themselves, taking on the usual role of the scientists. So they need to act like scientists.

    It's still research, no matter who does it. The only 'project requirement' is to see if you can make a hypothesis work, and see where your path of discovery takes you. Every time you learn something new, the game changes. So goals will change as you learn more. Which means invention simply can't be scheduled. Putting a box around researchers is madness.

    "Free market" has nothing to do with it. That's way downstream. It's all about figuring out what we can get that works within reality's rules, which means figuring out what those rules are.
  17. falcn

    falcn Squidless Soul Supporter

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    I probably could. Just bought another ICE bike that I've always wanted more than an electric.
  18. Traxx

    Traxx Long timer Supporter

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    This thread started off pretty good, it seems like mostly ICE bashing now. If you really want to get some converts then realistic solutions need to be presented. I don't care the power source, I just want to ride. Fast, long and comfy and don't give 2fcks about the green shit.
    I work with electric motors and drives (maintain not operate) from 1/4 hp to 1500hp from across the line start to SCR to VFD's. I fully understand how they work, and the advantages to them. I also understand the shortfalls of the current line up of motors, drives and powersources.
  19. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Ford has announced that they plan on making the F-150 in hybrid form. Surely a 100% electric will follow.

    As far as coming close to what a basic F-150 can do..

    Earlier this year, a truck was stuck on a snowy road in Raleigh, North Carolina and a Model X driver showed up and helped the truck by pulling it up the road. It was captured in an impressive video.

    Norwegian Model X owner Bjorn Nyland also performed several other Model X towing stunts including pulling a 95,000-lb semi truck in the snow.

    Elon Musk’s Boring Company also used a Model X to pull 250,000 lbs of muck rail cars out of their tunnels.



    https://electrek.co/2018/05/15/tesla-model-x-electric-towing-record-qantas-boeing-787-9-dreamliner/
  20. more koolaid

    more koolaid Been here awhile

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    Range-Range-Range

    Current state of the art would work for 90% of my usage [commuting/errands] its the last 10% that's the problem.

    A rent-able trailer or saddle bags with additional batteries to increase range to 500 miles or so would work, I've done more in a day but after 500 miles you don't need more range you need someone in spike heels with a whip.
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