What is the major hurdle in the acceptance of electric vehicles: range, recharging time, price?

Discussion in 'Electric Motorcycles' started by voltsxamps, Sep 13, 2016.

  1. Muiraine

    Muiraine Adventurer Supporter

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    My statements were not simply a matter of personal taste but the product of extensive research. The idea that billions of dollars in the study of Psychoacoysticd by the automotive industry and over a dozen governments will be proven demonstrably wrong when people get used to quiet electrics isn't plausible. If the ongoing research didn't make the point then the fact no historical example exists of a popular movement away from what you call noise.

    Nobody made a Horseless Carriage that imitated the sound of a horse galloping because despite the persistence of horse metaphors, a car or truck was mechanically different in a way not evident when comparing combustion powered and electric powered motors.

    There are 3 different electric guitars produced that perfectly recreate the sound of accoustic guitars.

    They don't sell because there is no compelling reason to prefer one over a natural acoustic guitar.

    No on argues the electrics don't sound or play well.

    Cars powered by fossil fuel rail that rationale for numerous reason you well know. When you obviously are intelligent enough to recognize there is a term correctly describing what is being discussed, "psycho" + "acoustics" then you deliberately use a word that mis-characterizes the facts it takes away any motivation to share in good faith. There will certainly be a few people who choose silent vehicles where and when legal to do so just like numerous friends of mine never gave up vinyl records, but the majority of people will continue to listen to digital recordings.

    As for turning the sound off, I've described a service and product that gives the user complete control of historic motor profiles, contemporary profiles, and an MDK for Hackers/Makers who are naturally moved to sample and modify, or synthesize vehicles vibration and sound. With this comes Virtual Clutch and Gear Shifts that can be adjusted to imitate the "feel" of the real-world Mecha they are based on. Versions will be available for aftermarket integration and home versions for eSport fanatics wanting to game up to that level above and beyond.

    Anyway, if being teased and given shit by Iron Horsemen didn't discourage me any time in the past 47 years of riding it isn't likely any of your naysaying will make a difference. I just thought there might be an opportunity for real conversation, find cool people ride with. If this is your idea of welcome then fine, I've been riding alone since before you were born.
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  2. Muiraine

    Muiraine Adventurer Supporter

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    This is the real stuff that gets on my nerves. I have repeatedly asked about Fast Charging Zero Motorcycles and never getting a straight answer. Finally tracked down this detail on their website.

    The Zero Motorcycles SAE J1772 Charging Socket Kit
    Allows charging of a Zero Motorcycle using compatible public electric vehicle charging stations.
    Once installed, the adapter socket is discreetly located in the scoop area of the Zero S or Zero DS motorcycle.

    Please note, the SAE J1772 Charging Adapter does not support standard J1772 Fast Charging. It is limited by the motorcycle’s integrated charger.

    Also, many public J1772 charging stations now require the vehicle to authenticate itself. The SAE J1772 Socket Kit provided by Zero does not support charging stations that require such authentication.

    By the time I purchase the add-ons that make a Zero useful for me, it costs as much as the Energica Eva while not designed, built, or performing as well. And now I find it doesn't talk to almost 2/3 of the chargers in the Bay Area and does not support Fast Charging, a feature standard on all Energica bikes so the charge to approximately 80% to 85% in 20 minutes.
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  3. Muiraine

    Muiraine Adventurer Supporter

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    Numerous companies including mine are working on different schemes to enhance a rider's situational awareness. In helmet displays of speed and gear may not be important to everyone but having something that earns you of another vehicle entering your blind spots or approaching too fast and or too close without startling the rider could be a good thing for everyone. There are a lot of ways to possibly do that. Should be interesting to see which idea gains traction.
  4. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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    Regardless of noise, with electrics, one no longer worries about what gear they’re in. :gyro

    A good set of flanged earplugs or ANC earphones takes care of wind & traffic noise.

    As far as sounds a bike makes, I’m cool with something along the lines of the LiveWire, as long as pedestrians can hear it at low speeds.
  5. Don Flamenco

    Don Flamenco Been here awhile

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    My 1992 Toyota pickup is still running just fine, and runs cleaner than my 2012 Subaru, per recent DEQ testing. How many batteries will I have to go through in 26 years? How much will that cost? And how much of a pain in the ass is it going to be to travel all over the U.S. & Canada, on batteries? No thanks, I'll keep my fossil-fuel vehicle--it's already cleaner than those batteries you'll have to create & dispose of, to get anywhere near that longevity.
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  6. more koolaid

    more koolaid Been here awhile

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    I think it's a matter of expectation.

    With sailboats-sailplanes and bicycles silence accentuates the experience, covering ground in silence is part of it's appeal.
    With motorized transportation not so much, which explains my exhaust modifications to every "toy" vehicle I've ever owned.
    With only five senses to work with why would you ignore 20% of them? Try watching an action movie with the sound turned off
    you can't tell me it's the same experience, and as far as finding enhanced sounds unauthentic tell that to the very practical German engineers that fitted sirens to the Stuka dive bombers.
  7. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    You obviously have a lot invested in this concept, apparently you have a business that depends at least partially on what you assume to be true actually being true. I would caution you to consider that all of the research you refer to comes from a time when the ICE was effectively the only game in town. In the minds of ALL of society, ICE propulsion was an immutable fact of nature, built into the walls of reality, and it affected the culture of society more than most realize. That is no longer true. The proportion of people for which it is no longer true is small, but the fact that the paradigm shift is there and is growing fast renders all of your previous research questionable at least.
    You need to speak with some people who have lived with EVs for a few years. They love their EVs because they are substantially different, and the silence is a big part of it. Don't take my word for it, ask the people who matter.
    While that may be a meaningful analogy to you, I think you'll find it does not work for those who aren't musicians. I'm not a musician, and to me you just said that no one wants a guitar that sounds like something it's not. So why would someone want an EV that sounds like something it's not, presumably an ICE, but just as easily a steam train, a Saturn rocket, the Jetsons' car, a tie-fighter, etc., etc., etc.?
    It seems you're basing an awful lot on your assumption that there will be wide acceptance for what you're selling. If I was in your position I would at least hedge my bets. If it's an add-on, your sales will be a pretty good indication of interest. If it's built into OEM products an off switch would be very prudent. You're wading into a great unknown here, per my reference above to a large-scale societal paradigm shift. Those are very hard to predict. You may get terrific sales at first that quickly crash, kind of like fidget spinners.
    Keep in mind that I'm just one guy, but that description conjured up an image of a 4-year old in his toy car playing with a selection of racy vroom-vroom sounds. I'm well aware that adults can be plenty immature too, but that's quite a stretch. Not to say there's no market for it. For me the disqualifier is that it's all fake, just make-believe, and anyone who knows you're riding/driving an EV making those sounds must assume you're living in a fantasy world. I hope your product only plays the sounds inside the vehicle or rider's helmet - otherwise you're like the bozo who thinks he's doing the world a favor by opening all his windows and cranking his stereo full-tilt to share when his favorite song comes on. If it does play outside, please-please-please limit the volume.
    Speaking only for myself, all I've done is disagree and say why. I've been in business and I hate to see someone going into a venture without eyes wide open. You're more than welcome here, and if you're ever in eastern PA maybe we can get together for a ride. Just to set the record straight, I'm older than you and been riding longer.
  8. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    In 26 years you'd probably be looking at your second replacement pack. If you buy from a dealer that would be quite expensive, but there are already aftermarket firms that sell at substantially lower prices. And depending on your original chemistry, there are any number of forums where you can find out how to build up your own pack for even less. It's a moving target, but prices are generally falling and options are increasing. Overall cost-wise, pack replacement is where you pay back most or all of that money you saved on fuel. You're still ahead in terms of maintenance.

    As of today, if your goal is to travel wherever and whenever you want, an EV is not for you. But that's not most people. The latest EVs make them practical for people in the exurbs for daily driving. Long distance travel still has limits and requires planning. That's why most EVs today are used as second cars, where an ICE does the occasional long trek. For single-car families it frequently makes sense to rent a car for that odd long trip. Much cheaper than paying insurance on a second car.

    If you still believe an ICE can in any way be cleaner than an EV, you really need to catch up on your research. Your assumption has been proven wrong by multiple highly-trusted sources.
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  9. davenowherejones

    davenowherejones short guy

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    Walking naked pollutes less.
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  10. Don Flamenco

    Don Flamenco Been here awhile

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    I do build my own packs (38120's, 18650's, Thundersky batteries) and prices are NOT going down; as more people are building their own, and companies are getting involved in building batteries for the consumer segment, prices are going higher, A LOT higher.

    And in 26 years, I would need the equivalent of 4-6 of the newest prius battery packs. They are not actually getting advertised lifecycle in years. And I noticed that you completely ignored talking about the pollution of making these batteries, and their disposal. I've read up on that subject; the processes are extremely dirty to the environment, so really what's happening is that you're trading one dirty process, for another even dirtier process.

    The entire point of having a vehicle is being able to travel anywhere, anytime. The vehicle needs to work for ME--not the other way around.

    If you ACTUALLY READ what I wrote--I compared my 1992 truck to my 2012 car--nothing else. I love how you changed what i wrote to further sound like a condescending jerk.

    I read your replies to other people who disagree with you, and you come across like a prick. Don't bother responding.
  11. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    That's not what I'm seeing on sites like LunaCycle. Can you expound on that? Are you seeing higher prices because the power/capacity is higher and older tech is becoming obsolete? Examples?
    A Prius is not an EV, so there are substantial differences in their packs. And aren't they not even lithium? Our 2017 RAV4 hybrid is NiMH, which no one has used for EVs for decades. Last I heard, lithium is EPA-certified as landfillable. I know some of the trace elements currently used (like cobalt) come from 3rd world countries where the processes are pretty wretched, but that's more an issue with the processors. And hopefully it will be a complete non-issue as new chemistries emerge.
    I agree. You're talking about you, I was talking in general terms. Generally, EVs are more than workable for a lot of people who aren't even aware that they're workable.
    I did read what you wrote, and the only comparison you made was that your 1992 truck was cleaner than your 2012 car. Odd, but possible, so OK, and not at all the focal point of your post, at least it didn't seem so to me. I did not "change what [you] wrote", I just disregarded that part because I accepted it. I responded to your other points because that's where I thought I could add something. It seems to me you're going way out of your way to be offended here. If I seemed "condescending" to you, perhaps that's because I've never seen you on these boards before, so all I know about you is that you have a 1992 truck and a 2012 car and some ideas that seem like misconceptions. If you have such extensive experience with building packs, I'm curious as to why you also seem to have a bit of an EV-skeptic perspective. I'd also like to know more about your experience building packs. (I have some specific questions regarding shorted cells I've been wondering about.) You could be a valuable contributor here. I'm here because I've been involved in EVs for over 20 years and have some experience to offer. I also want to learn as much as I can. Maybe you can help.
    Perhaps you would sound less like a prick yourself if you addressed where I have my facts wrong and why. Be specific. We all want to learn, no one more than me.
    Seriously?
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  12. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    Follow-up for Muiraine:

    I went back to an earlier post of yours and looked at your links. Are you talking about a product that lets you add new, extraneous sound to an existing EV, or are you talking about being able to modify the pedestrian alert sound that's standard on some EVs? If it's just the pedestrian alert, keep in mind that that is very low volume and is only active below some set speed (22 mph on my EV). I can't even hear mine. If you stand on a street corner, close your eyes and listen, you'll realize that cars driving past are primarily making noise from their tires and aerodynamics (wind), and it's plenty loud. The only time you can hear a significant component of engine noise is when the cars are starting from a stop, i.e. accelerating.

    Lots of hysterical hand-wringing has been wasted thinking about how blind people won't be able to hear oncoming cars, when ALL cars make sufficient noise already. In fact, there are plenty of luxury cars that are quieter than many EVs, even in quiet parking lots at less-than-walking speeds. (I plan to add a bicycle bell to mine for parking lots.) If these ridiculous noise requirements continue, expect a LOT of pushback from EV owners. That could seriously and abruptly affect your business prospects. I personally think the best - and most fair - approach is that if a minimum level of sound is required, make ALL vehicles meet the standard. Luxury car owners are sure to be perfectly OK with adding noisemakers to their silent chariots, right? Bottom line, this is a market consideration that is far from settled.

    BTW, one of your links had comments at the bottom. Four people responded, all EV owners, and all said to please keep your hands off my quiet EV.

    Look, no one likes to nerd out about how to do cool things more than me. But I'm a product development engineer, and I learned long ago that paying attention to the science and working out the implementation are not the most important aspects of releasing a successful product. The key metric is whether people will buy it. None of your links had that. They all asked in essence, "Of these choices of sounds for your EV, which one do you like?" The better and more important question for your purposes is, "Would you like a sound for your EV?"

    In a marketing class I was told a story about an American car manufacturer in the '50s or '60s that got a marketing test group together and asked them, 'For next year's model, what is your preference in fins, prominent or more subdued?' They were told in no uncertain terms, 'Lose the damn fins. We're so done with them!' They had assumed fins were a given. They were wrong. They were very fortunate that the test group gave them the right answer in spite of not having been asked the correct question. It rarely works that way.

    You need market research. That small-but-cautionary 4-comment sample suggests it's even more important for this concept.
  13. ctromley

    ctromley Long timer

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    It sounds like you're not talking about Zero's Charge Tank option, which is supposedly fully J1772-compliant and bumps up the charging power to 6 kW. That goes into the under-tank-skin area, and has a socket where a normal gas cap would be. I'm not sure, but it sounds like this charging socket kit you're referring to is really nothing but a connector to be used with the kind of charging brick that comes with most electric cars. If true, it just feeds maybe 1300 - 1400 W to the universal-input onboard charger, so it doesn't need the handshake circuitry (is that what you mean by authentication?) that a full J1772 system would need. 6 kW isn't uber-fast, but it's better than what's on my car.

    Can you clarify what the Charging Socket Kit is designed to do? I don't think general-purpose J1772 Level 2 charging is it.

    I'd be very surprised if the Charge Tank option didn't work with all standard J1772 Level 2 EVSE. AFAIK you are correct that Zero doesn't support J1772 Level 3 Fast Charging.

    We did have one inmate here who had installed an aftermarket charging setup that topped out at 9 kW(?) Or did he set it up to double that by running two EVSE at the same time? Anyone remember? I do remember that it wasn't cheap, but if I'm going to be up around the Energica price range, I'd probably rather do it with a Zero which is much lighter. (Hmmm - maybe not so much with the added chargers. They ain't light. And no one wants a porky EM.)
  14. voltsxamps

    voltsxamps Advolturer

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  15. _mtg_

    _mtg_ Been here awhile

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    For highway riding, yes, of course wind noise is louder than the exhaust/engine. But, for slower speed urban riding, the quiet aspect of an electric drivetrain seems appealing.
  16. pdxmotorhead

    pdxmotorhead Long timer

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    FWIW,, 1 year anniversary of driving a electric car. 2013 Honda FIT-EV.

    - We drive the hell out of it, turns out its become our go-to out of three cars ,,
    Just too freeking convenient to run to the store do errands etc..
    - It costs < 1 buck to run it a day. (10 mile one way commute + running around)
    - Live in Portland Oregon, which has a bunch of charging stations, but I seldom use them,
    but I often do things like go to a movie, and the parking garages this days have EV only spots,,
    usually right up front.. Works for me.
    I have a level 2/220V charger that came with the car in my garage.
    Turns out that unless I really run around 80 miles (On a perfect day) is plenty. I seldom need to charge.
    - Car has 51K miles on it, I'm the second lessee, I've put about 13K on it in 1 year.
    - Perfect second car, its cheaper to drive than just the fuel bill on my Jeep Wrangler...
    - Fun to drive, for in town its quick ,, in sport mode its really quick. Not a Tesla but I could be leasing 3 for the money the Tesla costs. The car is consistently 8 to 8.5 seconds 0-60, but 0-35 feels instant.
    - If you draw a 25Mile circle around your home on a map, how often do you really leave that area?
    - My daughter loves it, she likes the smooth operation and the stereo is pretty fair..
    - I don't even think about range any more,, its about like having a car you can't fill above a 1/3 tank.
    if you've ever owned a Honda spree,, they get 100MPG but only have a 2 pint fuel tank, so their range sucks.
    - I could easily see having a EV as a first car and renting when I need to leave town.

    Anyway just a couple thoughts.
  17. MJSfoto1956

    MJSfoto1956 Been here awhile

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    ...and it's quiet!
  18. manybike

    manybike Omnipresent Supporter

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    The torque and instant power is appealing, just wish they had more range. Great for the city though.
  19. 1Gopokes1

    1Gopokes1 Been here awhile Supporter

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    "DO NOT POLLUTE"

    That is BS maybe they are not polluting at the place of use but they are polluting at the place of power generation and along the transmission route and at battery disposal

    for me I would buy one for round towning…...but the price is to steep $12-15,000 of something I can do for couple grand using ICE
  20. drfrisker

    drfrisker '13 DR650

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    Doesn't sound like a life of freedom to me if you don't leave all that often