What kind of battery for adventuring, is Lithium up to the challenge?

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by JoelWisman, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. worthydog

    worthydog Shosholoza Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2007
    Oddometer:
    744
    Location:
    Santa Barbara, California
    I get a headache when I read this thread. For me batteries are like toasters, I just want toast. I am not interested in how it is made. My bike doesnt have a voltmeter. I am happy to put in a new battery every 5 years but I don't want to think about parasitic drains! ...but I am interested in dropping a few pounds...
  2. nvklr

    nvklr Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2008
    Oddometer:
    673
    Location:
    Carson City
    I’ve been using an Alien Motion battery in my KLR for three years with no issues. I did buy a balance charger and plug that in about once a year.
    This one. http://www.alienmotion.com/am8.html
    Weighs like 2.2 pounds
  3. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    423
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Hi all,
    I've been on this thread occasionally for the last few years.... but I really wanted to post up again being I think our new product is relative to the discussion, but more importantly it's the biggest game changer in Lithium Motorcycle batteries since sliced bread, its the first battery that won't leave you stranded! Check out the Video and Press Release below. If you have any questions reach out to me scott@antigravitybatteries.com , I will also try to answer some questions on the forum, but at times the office is so busy I can't make it on the forums often enough to address everything... but I will try.




    Never get stranded again... Antigravity Batteries introduces the all new RE-START Lithium-Ion Battery. The first and only battery with BUILT-IN JUMP STARTING!


    Antigravity Batteries releases the all new, game-changing RE-START Series of Lithium-Ion Starter Batteries for Motorcycles and Powersports Vehicles. The new RE-START Battery, with “built-in jump starting,” makes being stranded by a dead-battery a thing of the past. For example, if a rider left his/her lights on overnight this would normally be a dead battery emergency requiring jump-starting, push starting or assistance. But with the new RE-START Batteries you simply press the RE-START Button located on the top of the battery, to access the Battery’s reserve energy, then start the vehicle and drive away. There will also be a Remote Key Fob Button Available which will allow the rider to trigger the RE-START feature without having to remove the seat or a fairing to access the battery.


    The new RE-START Batteries are the most technologically advanced Motorcycle/Powersports batteries ever built. They are the first Lithium-Ion Powersport Battery with a full Battery Management System (BMS) that actively balances the Lithium Cells while protecting the battery from over-charge, over-discharge, and over-temperature conditions. These built-in protections make for the longest service life possible, up to 2 times the lifecycle of Lead/Acid and other Lithium Starter Batteries on the market.


    Scott Schafer, CEO, states, “We’ve all been left stranded by a dead battery. It’s awful, frustrating, and in some situations, if you’re in the middle of nowhere, it can be very dangerous.” He explains, “Our objective as a leader in Lithium-Ion Technology for Motorsports was to create a vehicle battery that the customer can rely on and not worry about getting stuck in the middle of nowhere with a dead battery, and I’m happy and proud to say we have done it with this new battery!”


    All Antigravity RE-START Batteries have a new 4-Terminal-Post design which allows for easy connection for the user, and the ability for the Dealer to carry less stock since one battery will work for right or left side connections on the vehicle. They also come in direct-fit OEM sizes, so there is no foam needed for installation as required by other brands. All the new RE-START batteries come with a 3-year warranty.


    Applications: Sizes are available for most modern Motorcycles and Powersports Vehicles, and Race Cars.

    Retail Price: Prices Range from $129.99 and up.

    Availability: Approximately March 1st, 2018 through Powersport Dealers and Distributors, Battery Specialists, and directly through the Antigravity Batteries website at antigravitybatteries.com starting March 20th, 2018

    Contact Antigravity Batteries

    Phone: 310 527 2330 Email: info@antigravitybattteries.com Website: antigravitybatteries.com
    cgguy09 likes this.
  4. fjmartin

    fjmartin Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Oddometer:
    949
    Location:
    Redmond, WA.
    I gotta say...that is damn cool! I carry a micro-jump start on trips and having it built is save pannier space and with the key fob, make it super easy. Only down-side is I can't be a hero to others with my jump starter. I'll be excited to see it once it's released!
  5. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    423
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    The RE-START Batteries are actually released now... BUT we only have 5 of the 8 models in stock , but around Feb 21st the remaining 3 models will be in stock. For Dealers/Distributors they probably won't have them until later Feb, early March.... but we just put them up on our website tonight.

    Key Fob is about 2 months out.... BUT if you use our MICRO-START Clampless Harness Kit on your bike, the MICRO-START can actually be used as the REMOTE TRIGGER for the RE-START Button. Of course the Keyfob will be much smaller, but the MICRO-START can actually trigger the RE-START function just by sliding the MICRO-START on the clampless harness kit and pulling it off again immediately... no need to jump-start with the MICRO-START .. it's just acts as the remote trigger method for any RE-START battery we make.
  6. fjmartin

    fjmartin Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Oddometer:
    949
    Location:
    Redmond, WA.
    I see the equivalent amp hour rating for your various models. Do you have a list of the actual amp hours? I’d be interested as my bike has a lot of additional electronics and heated jacket/gloves. I might want to upsize models based on that reserve capacity.
  7. Treadless

    Treadless avoiding gravity storms if at all possible Supporter

    Joined:
    May 8, 2005
    Oddometer:
    6,517
    Location:
    above the soil's surface on the left coast

    I have been an advocate for LI batteries for many years... until last Thanksgiving. That was when I cooked this

    [​IMG]

    while attempting to get to a friends for dinner in a rush.
    The GPS had a some point randomly turned on (f'n Garmin) again, draining the battery below minimum safe voltage to jump. I jump started the bike and made a stop 14 miles later to balance charge it with this.

    [​IMG]

    And then head off to dinner. After about 10 minutes smoke started escaping and the battery deflated. Yes the battery was still it the bike at the time. Joel had told us about the amount smoke a LI battery will produce and I can say that he was not exaggerating. :eekers

    After this event I no longer wanted to use an LI battery, it just isn't practical in the r12gs in my world. :norton
    But this new RE-START is step in the right direction and may just bring me back to the fold.
    Dorito likes this.
  8. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    423
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Yes I can get you the actual Ah Ratings on the RS models... but I can also say for the most amp hours of all we make other batteries that have MORE real Ah because we fill them full with as much battery as possible... but they don't have the protections of the new RE-START models. So theres the trade of. We can get you a full 15Ah real Ah in our ATX12-24 which no other company has at all in that size .... but it won't have the over-charge protections of the RE-START. So if you accidentally over-discharge the super high Ah battery then you might ruin it. So our newer RE-STARTs have less Real amp hours than our HI- CAPACITY models of the past but will save you butt and not allow you to over-discharge or ruin it accidentally. So bear that in mind.

    Additionally you state you are looking for more capacity because of your electronics and headed gear. Well this may not really be a capacity issue to be honest... because if you are running at night, with your lighting on, your heated gear on, maybe some other electronics.... and you happen to be using MORE WATTAGE than your bike is putting out then you are actually running off the Battery itself and then you will end up discharging the battery even if you are riding and thinking the Alternator/Stator is putting out enough wattage. So you end up not getting enough charge back to the battery... In that circumstance I wouldn't even suggest a higher Ah Battery because it not going to cover a system that is not operating efficiently. ON the other hand you just might want to have more Ah as a precaution and that is absolutely fine.... I just wanted to express the difference. We have 2 models that have a regular version and Heavy Duty version...

    Are you speaking about the 800 in you sig... I will look that up and see what battery works and get the actual Ahs for the models we offer for it.
  9. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    423
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Well I understand you reservations. I know that scenario actually because it is what can occur when a lithium battery is over-discharged to a lower state of voltage such as the 6v range then jump started. From reading you post you seem to know your stuff, and yes if the voltage is very low and you jump or push start the vehicle it will start charging as normal... but lithium does not like to be charged from a low voltage at the bikes normal rate of charge until its at about 10.5v.... so this creates the potential for this type of issue.

    I will state that this is one of the exact reasons for developing this new RE-START BATTERY. We wanted to ELIMINATE any potential for over-discharge of our Battery. Because the bottom line was over-discharge was the primary reason for premature failure of a lithium battery, and fast-charging from a very low voltage as you experienced put the battery into a position to expand/puff, or worst case go into thermal runaway... lithium wants to be gently taken up to 10.5v then you can fast charge easily... but a bike at low voltage does not gently massage the battery back up to 10.5v like an aftermarket charger.... so this can create a problem.

    So that is what the RE-START is about... to NOT allow those accidental over-discharges, and if an accident happens, for example forgetting the GPS on overnight you are covered because the battery will put itself to sleep well before allowing over-discharge. This battery won't actually get close to going into the lower state of charge where the battery might be damaged. We also put a high quality OVER-CHARGE protection for some occasional voltage spikes... but we still do not suggest using any lead/acid charger on a lithium battery at this point.
  10. fjmartin

    fjmartin Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Oddometer:
    949
    Location:
    Redmond, WA.
    Yes, my bike is the F800GSA. Based on how it's setup I draw a max of 216 watts or 17 amps. The stator in my bike puts out 214 watts or 17.7 amps at idle and 378 watts or 27.8 amps above 4500 RPM. So, it's not an issue while running the bike. But, I have two concerns for why I'm asking about the real amp hours. 1 - With the CanBus system of the GS, it keeps some of the electronics like for about 3 minutes after shutting down the bike. This is a very small concern as this is my USB based stuff and not a ton of draw. 2 - When I'm on trips and it's cold I have my heated jacket liner on. It draws 84 watts or 6.18 amps on high. The connection to this is directly to the battery so active with the engine off. If it's cold out I've been known to leave it turned on while fiddling with the GPS or taking pictures or even on a cold morning I've rolled out of the tent, put on the liner and just plugged myself in to warm up. That's really where my concern comes in as to not run the battery out. But in thinking about it, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but the new re-start battery while having a lower Ah rating has a low voltage cutoff so if I was warming myself for too long and the battery shut itself down I could smack the button or keyfob and get the bike running which would recharge the battery. As such a need for excessive reserve capacity is negated. The stock battery is 12v, 12Ah, AGM, 6.00 x 3.44 x 5.75, 200 CCA, 8.1 pounds, BMW Part# 61218556314. As such I have 2 choices in the re-start line that are 12Ah pb eq batteries. The AT12-BS and the ATX-12. Can you explain which one I should get an why?

    Thanks!

    Joe
  11. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,371
    Location:
    Penticton, BC, Canada
    fjmartin, also take into account the average coldest of temperatures you will be starting the bike in. This can play a huge role in Ah equivalency requirements.
  12. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,371
    Location:
    Penticton, BC, Canada
    @Antigravity, can you explain the differences between your system and the one employed by EarthX - if you're familiar with it?
  13. fjmartin

    fjmartin Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Oddometer:
    949
    Location:
    Redmond, WA.
    Thank Bayner, I knew that you had to 'warm' them to get good CCA's from them but hadn't thought about cold affecting the reserve capacity which I know it does having had cameras and such have short battery run times due to cold. I wonder if the draw from my jacket would 'warm' the battery based on the draw to restore that capacity?
  14. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    423
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Well you know what is going on which is great, you actually know you wattage Output and use...

    You are correct that the Amp Hours don't really need to be as high in the RE-START model compared to our other models due to the fact that it will prevent the over-discharge and allow you to start the vehicle if you do over-discharge it. But keep in mind we are not skimping on the Actual Ah of these batteries. They have more than our competitors inside them. But being honest our original line had MORE real Ah due to available space inside the batteries. But the original will not save your butt in an emergency and can be over-discharged, and while an over-discharge is not a normal occurance, when it does happen is SUCKS and leaves you in a bad way, and can damage the battery.

    We do actually make a battery that has a massive 16Ah real Ah in our YTX12-24 model (which fits your bike).....That model has a massive and utterly unmatched Ah capacity for it size (YTX12 case format) compared to ANY Battery made. It crushes anything comparable in that YTX12 size by almost twice.... for example I think the Shorai has about 7 real Ah in their case size for that model...but our YTX12-24 has 16Ah actual, it has battery pack designed to fill it completely. That thing rip starts 800 Horsepower Rousch Racing Motors in Trophy Trucks running in the Lucas Oil Series, and the 145 Cubic inch V-Twin Motor that are super hard starts use them. But we've had quite a few Touring and ADV guys also use them.... but they are also more expensive since they have so much battery inside. So that is an option, but you have to monitor it and it doesn't cover your butt if you make a mistake and leave the heated gear connected and forget to turn it off for a day or two....

    As for your Bike, you are correct the AT12-BS or ATX12 will work. but the ATX12 is actually the CORRECT size for the Physical battery fitment as compared to the stock BMW Battery. We are 13mm shorter but the same in length and width. The battery comes with a 12mm spacer for height if needed. Keep in mind on these particular models that we offer a HEAVY DUTY version with 3.5 more Ah for the Heavy Duty models. We designed the HD models just for that purpose, knowing there are some who want/need a bit more power and capacity. For example a guy who does more Touring or ADV stuff. That is what those HD models are for. The AT12BS will save a little space front to back being it is about 13mm thinner than the ATX12 but it negligible, but both these model are the same specs in terms of Power/Ah but as I said the HD version has 3.5 more actual Ah. Another very minor factor is that the HD models weigh a few ounces more because the battery inside is bigger. If the battery has a "-HD" on the end of it... its the HEAVY DUTY model. See the image below... I circled the blue where is says "-HD"

    So to explain the difference
    upload_2018-2-16_22-32-13.png


    Also if you have a MICRO-START product already you can use that as the REMOTE to trigger the RE-START feature. If you get the "Clampless Harness" we offer, you can then remotely re-set the RE-START button by plugging the MICRO-START into the Clampless Harness for a second and removing it. It does the same thing as the Keyfob we are developing. But the keyfob will obviously be much smaller and easy to carry.... but the Keyfob is about 2-3 months out .

    Let me know if you have any other questions.

    Attached Files:

  15. fjmartin

    fjmartin Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2016
    Oddometer:
    949
    Location:
    Redmond, WA.
    Thanks for the info. Good stuff, I'll bookmark this so I have the reference material when I decide to pull the trigger!

    Joe
  16. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    423
    Location:
    Los Angeles

    Hey Baynor.... First off, good point about the size (Ah) of the battery... when you have higher Ah in a lithium battery that in turns mean you have a larger actual battery inside the case, and additionally you then have more Cranking Power (Pulse Discharge ability) So a bigger battery can give you more overhead in extremely cold weather, which can equate to better cold weather starting.

    As for the difference in the EarthX and ours. This is a loaded question because we are not out to try to be critical of other products. We liked what they were attempting to do, and they did it a while ago so I applaud them. At that time we looked at and tested some features of their BMS (over a year and a half ago) and didn't feel it was how we wanted to do ours. We have a full BMS as done by specific Battery Management Circuit designers who design for the Automotive and Medical Lithium Batteries. Its very advanced. That about all I will say at this point in time.

    My other issue was that I felt the Actual Ah of this ETX18 model we opened was very low...it was quite a small battery inside toi claim it represented 18Ah PbEq..... Again, this was a year and a half ago. I don't know if they have changed things or what. We were just observing what they were doing. Keep in mind a very small lithium battery can also easily start most bikes. But you do need to have a larger battery when you state you are giving 18Ah equivalent.

    Last, there are different levels of what some companies are calling a BMS. Some companies (not EX) said "we have a BMS" when it was just Balancing... some companies claim a BMS with Balancing and Low-Voltage Cut-Off (LVCO/over-discharge protection). We call a BMS as having a complete management system per the industry standards of temperature sensing, over-discharge, over-charge, cell balancing and being able to time the cut-offs. For example if your LVCO can be timed... some LVCOs cut off at a certain voltage but are not "timed"... but that isn't so good because say you start a big motor and it draws the voltage down to 10v for a for a few seconds.... if your BMS just cuts off at 10v exactly that means it will stop starting the vehicle immediately and shut down the BMS because it hit 10v for a second. That is not good. You want the BMS to KNOW that it can occasionally go down to 10v and then set an amount of TIME it can stay at that 10v before it triggers a shut down of the BMS. So there are differences in how a high quality BMS can perform compared to a cheaper one. We built our Automotive Battery about a year and a half ago and used a company, as I said above, that specialized in hiqh quality BMSs for Automotive and Medical Systems. That Car BMS is very elaborate and works great.... so after working on that BMS and seasoning it, we tried to bring that level of quality into a smaller much more compact format for the powersport vehicles we feel we have accomplished that.
  17. Bayner

    Bayner Long timer

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2008
    Oddometer:
    2,371
    Location:
    Penticton, BC, Canada
    Very good, thanks for the info. It certainly sounds like it has the potential to spare folks both a lot of grief, and ultimately some money as killing one of these batteries is not an inexpensive mistake.
  18. AussieEvo

    AussieEvo Adventurer

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2017
    Oddometer:
    32
    Great thread, definitely learning a hell of a lot!

    So for all the adventure bike riders out there who like to head off into the most remote location that they can, what is the best procedure to jump start a bike with a Lithium battery that doesn't have an over discharge protection system? I think the vast majority of us have probably left the gps/ignition/heated grips on over night at one time or another.........

    It's been mentioned on numerous occasions in this thread that once a Lithium battery drops below 10.5 volts it doesn't like to be fast charged and can damage the battery and possibly cause a fire, and I'm guessing that's what would happen if you were to throw a set of jumper leads onto the bike to start it and then charge the battery with the bikes own charging system.

    I could imagine it would be a long and deathly silent ride back to civilisation doubling your mate after you have accidentally burnt his pride and joy to the ground
  19. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2010
    Oddometer:
    423
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I will just reiterate that you are correct about lithium not liking to be charged from the Vehicles system below 10.5v..... but you can probably get away with jump starting at around 9v to get out of the emergency. The deeper the Discharge the worse it is to be having the Vehicles system charging it because the vehicles system doesn't massage it back up to 10.5v first like a quality charger would.... but if you in the middle of no-where you going to have to go for it.

    But also keep in mind this does not mean every time the battery is in a low voltage state that it will go into thermal runaway and melt down... in most cases the battery will just swell up from the over-charge/fast charging.... But if your in the middle of nowhere then you have to try to get out of there either way...
    Mr. Canoehead and AussieEvo like this.
  20. Eatmore Mudd

    Eatmore Mudd Mischief on wheels.

    Joined:
    May 28, 2012
    Oddometer:
    3,602
    Location:
    Wet side of WA.
    You missed my post in your new product launch post. http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/antigravity-batteries-game-changing-new-lithium-battery.1282714/#post-34337634 so I'll ask you here, I need to know the specific terms and conditions and details of the warranty and ALL the exclusions to it for this product up front. I'm tempted but very leery.