What kind of battery for adventuring, is Lithium up to the challenge?

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by JoelWisman, Mar 6, 2012.

  1. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Sorry I didn't catch the earlier post. Sometimes I don't get a notifications of new posts in the threads. The most for sure way to reach me or any of the staff is by email or phone call because then I will get it for sure.

    Now as far as your question. We actually are updating the warranty for the RE-START specific models...because some issues no longer relate to it compared to our older batteries since we now have the protections built-in to protect from Over-Discharge and other certain damages. I copy and pasted the section that refers to the issues we will NOT warranty for I have put YELLOW Text that do not apply to the new RE-START Battery.

    I will PM you some information shortly.

    WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER ANY OF THE FOLLOWING PHYSICAL and INSTALLATION ISSUES

     Any physical damage caused by abuse, mis-use or improper installations

     Any modification to any part of the battery or its parts

     Physical damage to battery after purchase by impact, neglect, or misuse.

     Installations in Custom Crafted Vehicles using other than stock charging systems

     Installations in “Oil Bags” in Custom V-Twin Style Motorcycles, or non-typical High Heat areas such as directly adjacent to exhaust pipes. (this is too high a heat for a lithium or Lead/Acid battery to survive, and dangerous)

     If the battery is used in sanctioned competition “Race” use of any kind using non-stock charging systems. Stock Charging systems in Race Vehicles is allowed.

     If the battery is used in a manner for which it was not intended. This is a battery intended to be used in Motorcycles and Powersport Vehicles operating with Stock 12v Charging systems that keep the battery charged during operation.


    WARRANTY DOES NOT COVER THE FOLLOWING ELECTRICAL RELATED ISSUES.

     Damage from “short-circuiting” of the battery

     Damage occurring from faulty Voltage Regulators (overcharging of battery by vehicle). This may occurs in Pre-1990s Motorcycles with older Mechanical Voltage Regulators (Harley Davidson, Honda CBs, Yamaha XS etc)

     Custom installation using aftermarket or performance electrical parts such as Stators, Regulators.

     Using a Battery Tender or similar Lead/Acid type Maintainer product on the Antigravity Lithium-Ion Battery (do not use Lead/Acid type trickle chargers, use ONLY Lithium Chargers specifically for 12.8v Lifepo4 Batteries)

     Use of Chargers NOT intended specifically for Lifepo4 Lithium Batteries

     Over Charging battery above 14.8v

     Over Discharge of battery below 10.5v (THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO RE-START BATTERY)

     Allowing voltage to drop below 9.8v by lack of maintenance (THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO RE-START BATTERY)

     If the Battery is used for an application that requires higher cranking power or a greater reserve rating than the Battery is designed to deliver, or the Battery capacity is less than the Battery capacity specified by the vehicle manufacturer, or the Battery is otherwise used in applications for which it was not designed, such as “Total-Loss” systems.

     Parasitic drains that discharge the battery to below 10.5v (THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO RE-START BATTERY)
    cgguy09 likes this.
  2. Eatmore Mudd

    Eatmore Mudd Mischief on wheels.

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    Thank you. Any exclusions if genuine product is bought new from a re seller ?
  3. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    This is a great question...

    About 2 year ago we got caught in a horrible situation with just this problem... We had a Tool Distributour buying MICRO-STARTs to sell to Dealers... So they are buying literally 5000 pieces a month...then we see like 15 Sellers on Amazon with oddball names we have never sold to and they are blowing out the product for lower prices than our Authorized Dealer can sell them for... So our Dealers call us freaking out saying who is THIS or THAT company selling if for 40% off everyday. We didn't know, could track it because it was not Serialized and got beat up, and rightfully so, by our Authorized Dealers for 6 months after that. It was bad. So we finally found the cause stopped selling to a certain Distributor and it took a year more to clean up the mess. So that is one of the main reason for Serializing.

    To get to you point... in this circumstance and at this period of the release of the new RE-START, that can't be happening until the Market gets much more saturated with product. We only released it just a short time ago and some Dealer/Distrbutors have not gotten any stock yet, and some have not even put out the blast to their dealer network. I released it here early but it then take about 2-3 month to catch up with Dealers/Distributors. So there will be not problem and everyone will be legit for the first few months... but later when more Distributor get it we might see some Wankers trying to run around the system... But if it IS our product and the Serial says it came as a shipment to one of our Authorized Distributor we will NOT exclude it at all. WE can also tell you if they are legit or not. But for now it mostly going to our larger Distributors that are closest to us.

    By the way I tried to send you a PM.... hopefully I did it correctly.
  4. Eatmore Mudd

    Eatmore Mudd Mischief on wheels.

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    Yup, got the PM. Thanks for taking the time to write. Sent you a reply.

    Let me know when you guys have a system up and running that lets us verify the retail serial numbers before we click the check out button.
  5. Bli55

    Bli55 -

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    What would be you recommendation on the road, except just to try and risk frying the battery?

    So far i have totally discharged your brand of battery 2 or 3 times, but both of those was able to bring it back with an optimate special charger.

    When in uncontrolled conditions, however, would it be a good idea, after the bike starts, to limit the available current by switching on appropriate number of electrical consumers?
    shuswap1 likes this.
  6. Ste7ios

    Ste7ios Been here awhile

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    Sounds a good idea but you can’t really tell it without some measurements and knowing the acceptable change rate for the specific battery.
  7. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Hey Bli,

    I"m glad you were able to bring back the batteries. Keep in mind we use a very resilient cell that was dramatcially improved once we moved away from A123 a good few years ago. So, it can be brought back and we feel Optimate is by far the best charger for that and what we use on our Work benches... but the overall Lifespan has probably been reduced... but keep going it might surprise you.

    As far as my suggestion is... if your in a emergency you have to get going, and if you have a jump starter you can maybe jump it... run the bike a few minutes... turn it off.... start it run it a few minutes turn it off let sit a few minutes. My point being to message it back up to about 10.5 volts... then you are pretty safe to just go and run it if you get it above 10.5v. Wit that being said it does not mean the battery will go into thermal runaway any time it is low and you jump start it.... sometimes it can survive it... but just TRY to stay away from that situation.... which again is the reason why we developed the RE-START Battery...
  8. Bli55

    Bli55 -

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    Yes I'm definitely interested in the re start....but only when my current bat dies! =D

    So as i understand you suggest basically to let the battery cool off in between pulses of charging?

    Sounds reasonable...i was thinking on the lines of a constant but slow charging.
    For example as soon as jump starting, use all lights for a total of, say, 120W and maybe even heated grips for 30w more. (From experience, this is borderline consumption for charging). Then after some riding, turn off grips, then later some lights etc...
  9. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Well first off.... keep using any current battery until it's dead. We don't want to try to over-sell you, if it not broken then let it go....

    Your idea seems interesting also... but I'm honestly not sure how your or my idea would work in real life... just potential strategies so you battery doesn't start going into Thermal runaway under those emergency severely overdischarged conditions. Your idea also seems reasonable, but I"m afraid of the higher voltage the charging system might keep putting out even though your draw would be high.... its not just the current output... but the voltage which for an easy analogy is like having a firehouse connected and charging the low battery rather than a garden hose.... that is why the Chargers like Optimate start off at a low voltage and keep raising it gently. My suggestion just allow the battery to get some pulses, that might somehow slowly get the voltage up if you only do it for a little bit at a time.

    A last idea and one I have not test, but might try to test in the shop is leaving a micro-start connected.. but NOT jump starting it.... it might act as sort of a battery to battery leveling of the charge.... For example if connected to the battery press the boost button to allow the energy to flow (it only does it for 30 seconds at a time before reverting back to safety mode on the Micro-START) and see it that brings the voltage of the battery up. Again I have to add the disclaimer that I do not know if this would work, not can I recommend it if I don't know. I'm just looking at ways to allow the battery to maybe more safely get charged from a very low state of charge and not risk a thermal runaway if you were stuck in the middle of nowhere with a severly drained battery.
    AussieEvo and Bli55 like this.
  10. Packeye

    Packeye Adventurer

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    AntiGravity...I am about to buy one of your new ReStart batteries. I apologize if this has been mentioned previously, but can you tell me what the difference between the AT12-BS-HD vs ATX-12-HD? I ride a BMW F800GSA with a few SAE cables hooked to battery for charging phone, air pump etc. Thank you
  11. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    No problem.... They are just different case sizes... They are actually the same height, and same length (L to R)... but front to back the ATX 12 is 3.4" and the AT12BS is 2.75".... so the AT12-BS is thinner front to back. But both have the same Ah hours and power in the HD models just a different case format. Let me know if that was clear enough.
  12. Packeye

    Packeye Adventurer

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    That answers my question. Thanks.
  13. Allrpm

    Allrpm Been here awhile

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    I like the idea! How much is this Fob going to cost me on top of the battery price? I will need one soon as my battery is still the original from 2013!

    RPM
  14. murph76

    murph76 Been here awhile

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    Update.....my 10yr old Shorai finally gave up the ghost....
    Lupin 3rd likes this.
  15. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

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    Not too good considering the cost.

    My flooded lead acid batteries on my motorcycles have always lasted 9 years and the factory installed batteries in my last two cars that I have owned since new and kept that long, lasted 15 years and 16 years.
  16. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

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    Show me a charge algorithm for your batteries and then show me how a charging system on a car or motorcycle that is the same or different.

    I'd also like to know how the charge algorithm of a Lithium Battery is different from a regular charger for FLA, AGM batteries.
  17. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Sorry we can't talk on ADV anymore outside the Vendor area because they claim it is an advertisement and will ban us for posting outside the Vendor area. A very limiting structure for a forum to expand and promote new technology, but oh well we want to follow the rules.

    As far as the charging I shouldn't get banned for explaining.... Well a Lithium Charger will massage a lithium battery back if it is over discharged meaning is a softer start on charging with a much lower voltage initially than lead/acid then ramp up as the battery goes above 10.5v. Additionally the end of charge on a Lithium Charger will not cycle as often as a Lead/Acid battery being it takes into consideration lithium does not have natural discharge like a lead/acid battery does. Also a Bikes system does not charge the same as the external chargers. So the factor here is that Lead/Acid stand alone charger can potentially over-heat Lithium on the initial start of charging by starting with high voltage and current. So there is a difference.

    Also note that and AGM charging profile is different from FLA or Gel.... you can do the research on that.
  18. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

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    Fully aware of that having worked with batteries and evaluating chargers in a defense lab.

    The question is, be it an AGM, GEL or Li-Ion, there is nothing special about the charging system on a car or motorcycle, yet vendors feel it is OK to sell these batteries for use in them. Go figure!

    And if I am paying roughly double for a specialty battery, should I not get double the life out of it as in 18 years (in my motorcycle) or 30+ years (in my car)?
  19. Antigravity

    Antigravity Been here awhile

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    Sorry, but it sounds like you prefer to debate, and perhaps prove that your opinion is correct rather than seek actual information on Lithium. I saw you dismissed the 10 year life of the Shorai LIthium Battery which was a GREAT life for a Motorcycle battery. Then you proclaimed you lead acid batteries have gotten substantially more life than I have ever encountered from a lead battery.... but to each his own.

    I understand you ambivalence to lithium, there are people who do not have the facts and will need to get their own information to prove its a viable option for them. But Lithium is a fine product, and has many benefits, and is the change of format moving forward as you can see by the manufacturers now using them in several models.

    I'm here just to educate and clear up the facts, not argue against someone who has their mind set on a price point and what is considered value. I can get a pair of Kmart Tennis Shoes for $20 dollars to run in.... or I can' pay $80 dollars for a better Tennis Shoe that offers more support, lighter weight and I'm paying for the better technology. So we all have our choices in what to buy. I might choose lead for my scooter and lithium for my dirt bike because I prefer certain benefits for my application.
  20. Global Rider

    Global Rider Alps Adventurer

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    Buddy, I am not into drinking the Kool-Aid. You run a business and therefore have an agenda. I do not. I make smart buying decisions, and what that means is if I am buying a battery at twice the price, then I expect to get twice the life.

    10 years is no screaming hell for a battery. I get 9 out of a motorcycle FLA and 15+ out of an FLA in my cars. Unfortunately, two of my five bikes has a GEL and a AGM. I know the advantages of those, but I also know the disadvantages of them.

    I have no issue with Lithium. I have them in my digi-cam and phone. Great batteries, great energy density and they last.

    The fact is, I will not get double the life out of one. Sell it for half price and I'll consider one.