When do you call it quits?

Discussion in 'Face Plant' started by Colorado Ron, Aug 21, 2012.

  1. Scottosphere

    Scottosphere n00b

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    A. Regulations don't always evolve into bans; to say so is fear-mongering.
    2. Bans can be a boon to health and well-being; "ban" is not a bad word.
    D. Incentives can go a long way to changing behavior; it is just a matter of priorities.

    I want change. I want to ride in safety. I want my hobby to not contribute to children getting asthma. I want an affordable moto with basic, standard safety features. I don't think these things are too much to ask.

    Bring on the electric motos with ABS and airbags and traction control. Ban the manufacture of new 2-stroke motos. Pass laws for progressively stricter moto emission standards. Tax the dirtiest motos already out there. Give tax breaks on sales of electric motos. Lower our highest speed limits and enforce them with cameras.

    Homework: Look up "the tragedy of the commons".
    DustyRags, william munny and EastRoad like this.
  2. Dan Diego

    Dan Diego Long timer

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    Or the Mafia and gypsies.
  3. basketcase

    basketcase lifelong reject fixer Supporter

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    Have to admit there have been several times I just "didn't go" because something didn't feel right.

    My days of cross country trips and lonely place solo rides are over due to encroaching osteo issues.

    For now I still have the urge, enjoy the rides, and relish the fellowship with my buds for day rides and occasional 3-days to the Smokies. I'll hang it up when and if balance becomes an issue, and when it feels like time.
  4. Rgconner

    Rgconner Long timer

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    New 2 strokes are pretty much banned everywhere.

    California the cut off was back in the 80's if I remember correctly.

    And I am pretty sure the lesson of the "tragedy of the commons" is not what you think it is.

    Your suggests pretty much are the tragedy of the commons. You want everyone else to do what you want, and individualism be damned.

    Yet the lesson of the commons is when everyone owns a thing, no one owns a thing.
    Jarlaxle and Foot dragger like this.
  5. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    Guns:
    Your beloved 2nd amendment is essentially a left-over from a time where the freshly baked independent USA had just a Militia-type Army... and a potential threat from say england or so existed through people that weren't happy about the change in power-structure.
    That originating need has essentially, well, changed I would say?

    Cigarettes: Well, here's the thing: DESPITE heavy heavy regulations on the aspects of smoking: NOT A SINGLE (no not one) manufacturer has been so far FORBIDDEN TO MAKE A PACK OF SMOKES.
    Also there is absolutely NO BAN on buying, selling and SMOKING cigarettes, as long as you meet the minimal age-requirements in your respective part of the globe (for some places, that means you're 9 and you smoke if you "want" to).
    Booze has been regulated for ages... meaning a minor can not (should not) buy alcoholic beverages... and in some places "public drinking" has been outlawed... but again, not a single law exists today (yes, lets not go to prohibition era, why? because it FAILED...) in any place that I'm aware of outside of some strict muslim countries, which prohibits you - as an adult - to buy and drink alcohol.

    So facts:
    - Cigarettes: You're not allowed to smoke in a lot of public places.... and it has been so for years in most places. And yet, throughout these years of banning smoking in restaurants etc, cigarettes are still freely available, you can smoke... just not everywhere.

    - Alcohol... despite long standing RESTRICTIONS (age), you can still get pissed almost everywhere.

    - In Switzerland for example, OLD TIMER cars (older than 30): For a long time now, we have had restrictions: 2000-3000 km/year (respectively 50-60hrs of operation per year)... and yet, despite this: NO BAN on old timers... we have SEVERAL races each year, a few pretty good exhibitions and shows, and the old timer market is going quite well... and there is NOT A SINGLE motion anywhere (neither by utter green left wing politicians nor by anyone else, that I am aware of) to BAN OLD TIMERS.

    - Motorcycles & Car Restrictions:
    London City has had so called "low emission zones" since 2008 (? not sure if it was 07 or maybe 09')....
    Other cities have had "congestion" charges, time limits, other sort of limitations for a good few years - and never has this resulted in a BAN on owning and using a Motorcycle or Car.
    In a LOT of countries you are NOT permitted to go dirt-riding in national parks either... and yet, sales of dirt bikes / enduros has gone up...

    -Guns have been outlawed (or at least the option to get a legal concealed carry permit, haevily restricted) in a LOT of countries for a LONG TIME... In Switzerland it has been over 20+ years since any private citizen was even able to get a concealed carry permit... it was DIFFICULT before that, but it was "possible" - whereas since like 20 or so years it's virtually impossible. Germany, France, England, etc... too,... Australia? Well I guess you know the answer:
    Outside from the US and a few other places, gun ownership - and even more so: Carry permits - have been regulated / restricted for a LONG TIME - and yet, funny as it may sound to you - it has in NONE OF THOSE PLACES ever resulted in a BAN ON MOTORCYCLES... (or for fact: a ban on guns...).
    In most of the places I know about, where there are restrictions on owning / carrying guns: you are still able to get a gun, or at least go to a range and shoot... or get a hunting permit or such stuff.... it just is that not every boosed up joe-average with a power-complex can go out and purchase a gun...

    So again: HOW exactly, outside of some weird fictitious interpretation of an NRA Reality: HOW does RESTRICTING GUNS lead to a BAN on Motorcycle... and please spare me "potentially" ... give me cold hard facts, show me one country, ONE - where a BAN (and again, no one really talks about an outright ban on guns anyhow) ON GUNS has DIRECTLY LED TO A BAN (not regulations) on MOTORCYCLES? Please, I'm curious.


    Last but not least: pollution.
    Well if you ever had the pleasure to spend "summer" in beijing city... or in say, dehli... Funny - spending more than a few weeks in any of those cities in high-polution times, it makes you oddly appreciative of your money and its ability to buy WORKING industry grade face masks.
    I've spent time in Lanzhou - industrial city in central china... it took me 5 days to develop a nasty dry cough, a nose full of black-mucuous & stuff, then nose-bleeds... and then, well I moved on... it was at a time where that city - I found out later - was crowned "worst" in the air-polution aspect, world wide.
    Now sure, I as a rider and car driver, might not "LIKE" the idea of being forbidden to enter a specific city at certain times... but at the same time I don't like the fuckin' polution either... and I guess whilst I don't have - and don't want - any children, I still think we need to do some thing about the environmental problems we are facing...
    and yes, sometimes certain sacrifices for the greater common good need to be taken into account by a few individuals.

    And just think about it, how many people would still be alive if an individual in the US wouldn't be able to buy say, full automatic assault rifles. or .306 Lapua Magnum type sniper rifles... do you really need the ability to blow a fellow humans being head off from 400+meters? or that automatic sub-machine gun...
    And don't tell me you NEED a damn assault rifle to feel safe at home.
    DustyRags likes this.
  6. Rgconner

    Rgconner Long timer

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    2nd amendment is for protection against the tyranny of the government. A lesson those in Europe has still not learned, despite repeated tyrants since... forever.

    You don't know your own laws: Tobacco companies will not be allowed to make flavored cigarettes for the EU market in 2020. Seeing how I pointed this out already and it is easily checkable, I am shocked at your willful ignorance.

    Lastly, you cannot buy a full automatic assault rifle in the US, not since... ever. Fully auto was banned in 1934, and Assault rifles are a WW2 invention. Collectors can own them, but are so heavily regulated it is ridiculous.
    What you can buy is semi-automatic guns, which are one pull, one bullet. Humans can, at the Olympic level, shoot about 5 rounds per second in very short bursts. That is true of an AR-15, a Glock, or a S&W revolver.

    How many more people would be alive?
    Hard to say, but long guns cause on average as many deaths as sharks and lightning. FBI does not split it out, but approximately 258 people committed suicide (they include that in gun deaths), accidents, or crime by "long guns". That includes hunting rifles, shotguns, and "Scary black rifles".

    So it is some number greater than 1, but less than 258. Probably far less, considering suicides are 2/3 of all gun deaths.

    BTW, your self righteous error filled rant is exactly the sort of thing that gets a thread condemned to CSM.

    So knock it off and act civil.
    Jarlaxle and Midnightventure like this.
  7. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    Now that part about Tobacco: Yes, you are of course correct: FLAVOURED CIGARETTES - an Flavoured alone.
    (medically speaking, those menthol cigarettes are just extremely nasty - even compared to the already pretty nasty cigarettes)...
    what's your point?
    Making, Selling, and snorting coke has been illegal for ages...
    It's just a matter of where you draw the line.

    Guns: I'll keep this short, you requested me to "knock it off" and I'll oblige:
    Answer this one single question, instead of avoiding it YET AGAIN:

    Show me ONE COUNTRY that has a BAN ON GUNS (or even restrictions) THAT HAS LED TO A BAN ON MOTORCYCLES.
    Show me one... how hard can this be? I mean according to your own brilliant logic my dear sir, there should be dozens of countries (especially here in ignorant europe) where the restrictions and bans on civilian gun ownership (or more correctly: Carry permits) have led to a ban on motorcycles.
    name it and explain the correlation between the ban on guns and motorcycles.
    until you are able to answer that, I guess the rest is simply down to another one crying out for the right for gun ownership.

    So take my self righteous error, and finally deliver some hard cold facts on your original claim, please...,



    Common... that is just cheap. a tad of a heated debate takes more than one, and you seem happy to take part on the same level...


    Tyranny of the state: do you truly believe that a select gang of hill-billies armed to the gills are a match for the army of a modern state?
    maybe if you're concerned about the TYRANNY OF A STATE: get into politics and start changing shit.
  8. docwyte

    docwyte Long timer

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    Take this off topic shit out of this thread.
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  9. Rgconner

    Rgconner Long timer

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    [QUOTE="EastRoad, post: 29768757, member: 306747"

    Show me ONE COUNTRY that has a BAN ON GUNS (or even restrictions) THAT HAS LED TO A BAN ON MOTORCYCLES.
    Show me one... how hard can this be? I mean according to your own brilliant logic my dear sir, there should be dozens of countries (especially here in ignorant europe) where the restrictions and bans on civilian gun ownership (or more correctly: Carry permits) have led to a ban on motorcycles. [/QUOTE]

    I already have shown you several bans on motorcycles and you won't accept it. Paris is an outright ban on motorcycles older than a specific year.

    You are making the same wiggle argument about Menthol Cigs... Gee, they did not ban ALL The cigs, so that is not a ban just because one type is banned.

    Since we can't agree on what words mean, or rather you insist that the word "ban" does not mean what it means, there is no discussion to be had.
  10. Dan Diego

    Dan Diego Long timer

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    The argument is about policy creep. Allow "regulation" on something and POOF! it's highly regulated, taxed and outlawed.

    I am in the camp that says KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF OF MY STUFF, THANKS.

    If YOU don't like something (tea, alcohol, tobacco, motorcycles, guns, gay sex, etc.) then don't use it. But stay away from regulating/taxing/outlawing mine.

    Thanks.

    (NOTE: This is not an argument for or against gay sex)
  11. EastRoad

    EastRoad Road Viking

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    The City of paris has a ban on 20yr+ old Motorcycles -THE CITY.
    Not the entire country, not even the entirety of paris....
    And you claim, that a ban on guns leads to a ban of motorcycles ... you claim that there is a country wide ban on motorcylces somewhere ... you claim that both are linked... you can neither give me one entire country that has a BAN on motorcycles (actually even paris doesn't count, the ban is on 20+yr old motorcycles - anything else YOU CAN RIDE IN THE CITY... I should know, I've spent a good bit of time there... on a motorcycle).
    You fail to deliver any compelling evidence on your original claim: Ban on guns leads to BAN ON MOTORCYCLES....
    It did never happen... and despite me showing you, that we have had heavy regulations on guns in most places of europe for decades - and still ride motorcycles. Smoking has been banned in many places - and yet: we ride motorcycles.
    All you claim is some hypothetical possibility, but it's far from the reality.
  12. Rgconner

    Rgconner Long timer

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    Actually, that was never my claim. It was your claim, and you want to project it on to me. Dishonest and a logical fallacy, moving the goalposts where you want them, not where I put them.

    My claim is that governments ban things they think they are bad for you. That is the common link. They have decided motorcycles are dangerous to health, thus they are banned in certain areas based on the impact to air quality.

    Sugary drinks are getting taxed/banned as well. There are many examples.

    And you keep hiding behind that only SOME motorcycles are banned in one city. If ONE type of cigarette/gun/motorcycle is banned, there is a ban. I never claimed countrywide bans, or ALL motorcycles, you keep reading things into my statements to suit your personal needs. Paris is not independent, it is in a COUNTRY, therefore the ban exists in that COUNTRY, because the city is not an independent government, it is part of the French government and the country of FRANCE.

    Your mental block is that for some reason, a ban must be 100% everywhere for it to be a ban... everything else is not a ban in your brain. That is not a logical conclusion based on what the word "ban" actually means.

    Well, I know the reason. You are wrong, and you don't want to admit it, but hey, that is your prerogative.

    That is how it starts. There are ample examples of partial bans leading to complete bans.

    Especially cigarettes.

    First it was restaurants, hotels, and workplaces (1995). then it was Bars (1998) Then it was within 25 feet of a door (2004). Then it was smoking in a car with a minor. (2008) Then it was any outside public area in some cities in California (more and more are passing such laws) and in 2012, in any rental the landlord does not want you to smoke in.
  13. DustyRags

    DustyRags Idiot

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    Ok, folks, we get it- you disagree. Back on topic please before we all get booted to the basement and the trolls invade.
  14. Dan Diego

    Dan Diego Long timer

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    Paris has banned old cars from the city, essentially, it's a ban on all vehicles that were registered before January 1st 1997 and all motorcycles registered before 1999.

    On the same day that France banned plastic bags, Paris introduced a ban on old vehicles from the city roads.
  15. anotheroldfart

    anotheroldfart Been here awhile

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    Ban on motorcycles in the US. Yes indeed. In New Jersey, early 1960's, the Garden State Parkway and the Atlantic City Expressway were closed to motorcycle traffic. The AMA (Motorcycle group) took NJ to court to have the bans lifted. Still a under 200CC limit.

    In the Philadelphia area, several restaurants parking lots were closed to bikes. Several local roadways, near a golf course, were closed to motorcyclists. Pebble Beach in California remains closed to bike traffic today.

    In the 60's, motorcycle riders were not welcomed in many areas. Then came the ad: "You meet the nicest people on a Honda".
  16. northoceanbeach

    northoceanbeach Been here awhile

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    Wow, the guys' reply that has cancer and lupus. I feel so bad for him, but why is he even thinking about whether or not he wants to prolong his life by staying away from riding? I know each of our lives are very precious too us but isn't there some truth to this? 12132942_421728478018187_985810681_n.jpg
  17. Nurse Ratched

    Nurse Ratched Been here awhile

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    Very few of us get to choose how we die.

    We do have some choices in how we live.
  18. northoceanbeach

    northoceanbeach Been here awhile

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    I talked to my girlfriend about what I posted above, and she said that it was probably because the sick man had been through so much and fought so hard to live, that he didn't want to have fought so hard to die by some teenager texting on their cellphone that pulls out in front of him.

    I have always thought of it as I would rather go out doing something that I loved, and not sick and feeble in a hotel bed. I had a friend when I lived on maui that windsurfed almost every day at Kanaha beach and hung out there and was friends with everybody. I had no idea he was as old as he was, he looked young and vibrant but it turned out he was 85. One day I got to the beach and he wasn't there and they told me he had a heart attack out in the water yesterday and died.

    Everyone mourned his passing, but they were unanimously happy that he died doing what he loved. No-one was scolding him for being irresponsible for being so old and still windsurfing and taking risks. They were not asking if he had been at home watching tv everyday if he would have lived longer.

    I guess that is the way I have always looked at it. I don't want to die, but I always have just kind of thought in the back of my mind that I would be sailing across an ocean in my 60's or 70's and get taken out by a storm, never to be heard from again.

    But to each their own, I am just sorry that this sport that we all love is so dangerous! so dangerous that many people quit when they have children because they don't think it is responsible to leave them with no dad or mom. It's crazy how dangerous motorcycling is.

    I have to admit after my accident it felt good to have my friends and neighbors giving me the thumbs up when they see me ride by or walk in somewhere wearing my gear. I hope I am not being not humble that it takes me feel good.

    To each their own and whatever decision you make that is your business and if you are getting your affairs in order overtime you go out, it isn't worth to, it wouldn't be fun anymore. I hope I never have another accident and I hope I never get more than a healthy level of respect, but not "THE FEAR".

    I don't know if I will bike forever or if it is just another hobby I have picked up and get super into and will move onto something else down the road. But there are those hobbies I have that stick and are lifetime hobbies like sailing and surfing. I have a feeling it will be like those.

    What ever happened to the spell check button? Do computers still have those? I miss those, If I have one I don't know where it is.
  19. St.Stan

    St.Stan Been here awhile

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    This thread is about quitting riding, right? Me, 50yo, riding since late 90's, better late than never. I consider myself a competent rider, but I'm certainly not joe racetrack by any means. About 10k a year, last 10 years, day riding and a few short road trips a year. Everythings fine. Until last sunday, driving ironically, following a boat towing a trailer to a lake. In the other lane a red trellis frame Ducati travels by maybe five over. Then his buddy comes around a right hand sweeper (to him), goes wide and crosses the line and violently impacts the front drivers side of the truck. Bike goes airborne and he ends up motionless on the pavement with an obviously broken leg.

    I'll spare you the whole story but I left when they started clearing out traffic so the emergency vehicles would not be obstructed. Read in the paper that the rider passed away in the abulance on the way to the hospital. It's changet the way I see motorcycles, now that the vulnerability of every rider was so vividly revealed to me. I'm pretty sure I will go riding this weekend but I can now see getting to the point in the future where I realize it's time to hang up my spurs.

    I work with four guys in their late 50's/early 60's that all used to be big time riders. Only one still does and only local stuff. I havent seen the two older ones ride in to work for several years. The fourth mostly quit after tboning a car that pulled out in front of him.
  20. NJ-Brett

    NJ-Brett Brett

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    Seems like there is always going to be people who take risks and crash.
    There are people who drink too much and ride, ride unsafe bikes, ride in very bad area's, and just are not good safe riders.
    They ride bikes that are way to big or fast for their strength and abilities, or ride with people and don't ride their own ride.
    So many people ride bikes that are picked to impress other people, not what is easy and fun for them.
    mikezx10 likes this.