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Who saw this coming... CRF450L

Discussion in 'Thumpers' started by Leget, May 23, 2018.

  1. Grreatdog

    Grreatdog Long timer Supporter

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    The big difference between a KTM/Husky 450 and 500/501 is the larger displacement is done by stroking the motor rather than by a bigger bore. All four bikes have the same bore. But they get the 500/501 up to 510 cc with a longer stroke crankshaft.

    It changes the whole character of the motor from a harder hitting, faster revving engine into a much more torque oriented motor. Don't get me wrong, the 500/501 is still a friggin rocket. But it is a friendlier rocket when ridden at low and midrange rpm.

    Which is what it sounds like Honda did with with a heavier flywheel and other changes from the race bikes. Remember, KTM and Husky don't sell separate competition enduros. Their street legal 250/350/450/500 EXC/FE are their enduro race bikes.

    So, their 500/501 is actually the one "detuned" for street with a calmer power delivery. Though detuned is the wrong word because it is still crazy fast and a torque monster. It just revs a bit slower so it doesn't hit as hard as the 450's.
    Plebeian, BygDaddee and thejrod like this.
  2. AdvNener

    AdvNener Long timer

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    so badly= 2hp ?
    MalleeFarmer, timeOday and Brtp4 like this.
  3. Lutz

    Lutz Fuzzy Rabbit

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    If it were just the 2 HP at peak, maybe not. However 2 to 5 horsepower (or more), at literally every engine speed measured (edit: as pointed out, not “literally” as I missed the bump in the overrev where the CRF makes more power)...yes, that’s badly. My point was, we’re not seeing one engine that is stronger at low RPM, while the other engine is stronger at high RPM. We’re seeing one that is stronger than the other at all RPM.

    Of course it’s a 510cc engine vs. 449cc, so not apples to apples. However, torque is proportional to displacement, all else being equal. So if you upped the CRF displacement by 13-14% to 510cc, it would be putting out 13-14% more torque than it does as a 449cc, and the EXC vs CRF torque/power curves would be right on top of each other.

    So that is probably what should’ve been pointed out by those dyno curves: these factory dual sports from KTM and Honda are cut from the same cloth when it comes to making power.
    jonnyc21 and twinrider like this.
  4. King of Beers

    King of Beers Been here awhile

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    You speak in absolutes... Incorrectly...

    The 450L, literally, makes more horsepower at 9,000 rpm than the 500EXC. (According to the graph posted above)

    You must own a KTM.

    Just saying :lol3
    NEPA 450x, carl5150 and Brtp4 like this.
  5. Lutz

    Lutz Fuzzy Rabbit

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    :lol3 You got me, I totally missed that bump in power in the overrev.

    No, the only motorcycle I own is a Honda. First generation CRF450X of all things. Never owned any KTM.
    King of Beers likes this.
  6. firephoto

    firephoto Been here awhile

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    Here's one about 2 hp higher.
    42080471_495104164356253_1589304312360329456_n.jpg
    I think that's 4th 5th and 6th gear runs and on the stock knobby.
  7. thejrod

    thejrod Been here awhile

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    FYI, here's the 450 KTM curve. You can overlay it yourself against the Honda's. It's pretty close. Looking at hp/rpm at points across the curve, the KTM seems to stay generally about 1-2hp above the Honda, so it's damn close. The KTM seems to have a 1,000 RPM higher rev limit though.
    The only real question about the Honda, is how much can it gain by uncorking.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
  8. King of Beers

    King of Beers Been here awhile

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    If you are looking for peak numbers, you cannot accurately compare dyno graphs produced on different dynos. It may not be accurate to compare two dyno charts on the same dyno if one is done in the morning and one is done in the afternoon, again, if you are looking for peak numbers. To be accurate the conditions must be carefully controlled.

    What you can look at is the shape of the graph. How the bike makes power. In this respect all of the bikes are very similar.

    The main difference to be noted with what you posted is that the 450L and the 500 die off around 7,000 - 8,000 rpm where as the FE450 continues to build power to nearly 9,000 rpm. I expect this is where the aftermarket will find most of its gains. I expect the graphs for the 450l and the 500exc, with a few mods and tuning, to be shaped more like the FE 450. Not exactly like the FE450 mind you, but I expect with some parts and tuning, the power will not die off so abruptly. I think the street legal bikes are being detuned in the high rpm for emission requirements.
  9. Grreatdog

    Grreatdog Long timer Supporter

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    The only major difference in the KTM/Husky 500/501 street legal enduros is the long stroke motor. They simply run like a long stroke motor. That is they rev a little slower and make more power at lower rpm.

    The KTM 520/525/530/500 series has always been that way compared to the 450's. The 500/501 bikes will never be the same screamers as the 450's because of that stroked crankshaft. They do most of their work before 8000 rpm.

    Since you have a choice with KTM/Husky, it doesn't make sense to buy a 500 then try to make it run like a 450. It can be done with a crankshaft swap. But why would you when the 450 is also street legal?

    As an old guy, I like the big lazier low rpm power of the 500. It fits my riding better while still being grin inducing. Same would apply to the 450L. But, if I were a racer, I would buy the KTM or Husky 450 for the harder hitting power.
    King of Beers likes this.
  10. miksu

    miksu Been here awhile

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    Also how well the stock muffler performs (to keep it quiet) or is it just too quiet and can not be uncorked at all? European exc muffler is ok, probably gain a little low end but not much more by changing it and it is pretty light. If the honda muffler weights a ton then aftermarket it is regardless. It is interesting the exc models seem almost ride able in stock configuration, at least power wise. That is not the case in europe and the 25hp 450L won't be either.

    Technically there are no emissions requirements at all for high rpm full throttle use because it is not tested. That is why street bikes have those exhaust valves which open after certain rpm on certain gear etc. but for a restricted thumper it is a bit of a different story because it may never get to the rpm and power range which is not tested.
  11. thejrod

    thejrod Been here awhile

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    What? If anything, the euro KTMs have fewer limitations, or is Finland different? Everybody over here clamors for the richer "euro" maps. The Euro bikes also don't get the choked up exhaust or the reeds in the intake.
    And I think we dispelled the 25hp rumor on the 450L, like a month ago with the first dyno charts.
  12. Bungholio

    Bungholio Long timer

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    Or just not worry about the statistics and dick measuring and just enjoy riding the bike and be happy that it performs satisfactorily for you (meaning the current rider of the bike, not specifically this poster).
    Brtp4 likes this.
  13. King of Beers

    King of Beers Been here awhile

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    I am just trying to be sure I, and others... to a lesser extent, have accurate information to aid in the purchase of the bike that best meets my (their) needs.

    Not interested in "measuring dicks" as you put it. I want to know everything about everything before I make an $11,000 purchase. I like to know the size and weight of the balls as well. :lol3

    Just trying to wade through the chaff, and dammed if there is not a lot of chaff.
    Nice Goat and Lutz like this.
  14. Cuttlefish

    Cuttlefish Riding to disappear.

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    Test ride...many questions will be answered!
  15. miksu

    miksu Been here awhile

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    It means the non street legal map which I thought the US market can not have because it would be too easy to make it non-legal? Nobody has ever run the steet legal version as far as I know :D No reeds but some ridiculously small intake restictor there is which just comes out and for exhaust shake out the catalytic converter out and unscrew the tip and off you go.
  16. Grreatdog

    Grreatdog Long timer Supporter

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    Unless Honda dealers have changed, not much chance of that.
  17. Viffer781

    Viffer781 n00b

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    How does ir compare to the wr450f? I currently have a drz400e and am looking at either the crf450l or wr450f. My primary concern is fuel range for the wr and the jetkiness of 1st in the new crf as I tend to be a bit slower / tractor hills on the drz. As the wr is road legal here in Aus keen to hear how it compares - as it there are no wr test rides where I live.
  18. MalleeFarmer

    MalleeFarmer Been here awhile

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    Mate I have not rode a Stock WR but I swapped bikes with a friend of mine and he has a 16' WR450F with an FMF and the power up kit with YZ-X ecu and tuning module smooth as butter plenty of grunt even more than my CRF450x the WR is a very nice bike and bulletproof reliability. They are the same weight in ADR form as the new 450L the jerkiness of throttle on the 450L has been remedied to a fair degree by adjusting the idle up to the recommended 1800-2000rpm. They are delivered with a low idle by the reports coming in.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Viffer781 likes this.
  19. jasonmt

    jasonmt Long timer

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    Looks like the EPA updated the online excel sheet October 05, and it appears the EDV rated power is pretty close to that on the MSO posted by Honda Pro Kevin. Pulled a few more rows out from what could be considered the "competition", take note of Beta's Small Volume Manufacturer Exemption.

    [​IMG]

    on-hwymc-2006-present (1).jpg
    Bitingdog likes this.
  20. firephoto

    firephoto Been here awhile

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    Answers a few questions. I see the KTM 500 doesn't have a catalytic converter, that's a big chunk of weight.