Why Dual Sports are NOT Cool

Discussion in 'The Perfect Line and Other Riding Myths' started by dredman, May 12, 2020.

  1. bwalsh

    bwalsh Long timer

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    Don't ever gamble, as you guessed wrong. I rarely watch videos people post. Now you're all pissy and whiny because someone calls your spam, spam.

    Grow up.
  2. dredman

    dredman Dirty Moto-Tourist

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    .....says the guys pretending to engage in a conversation. Like I said - you got me. I get pissy when someone pretends to disagree with me when they NEVER heard what I have to say. Hell the last guy to comment in this thread even admitted to not even reading the OP? WTF? And like you he had no argument, no logical comment, just dropped in to tell me I was wrong, and drop some ad-hominem. Come back if you want to talk about anything from the video (the topic of this thread), otherwise go spam somebody else's threads with your keen observations, & continue to protect the rest of the world from communication you deem unworthy - I think we are OK here?
  3. bwalsh

    bwalsh Long timer

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    TL;DR

    Dude, give it up. Buh bye!
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  4. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    The industry defined a genre?? Have you heard that stuff they call country music now days? You can't trust an industry to give you any more information than that believed to be sufficient for you to buy their product. How many GS Adventures with 8.7 gallon tanks have never been anyplace where fuel opportunities were more than 100 miles apart.

    Fortunately you don't have to have a Kleenex to blow your nose, no matter what the trademark says. Use toilet paper or your shirtsleeve, just don't blow it on me.

    By your definition a lot of cross country and RTW rides would not be considered an Adventure.

    You can define your bike and your ride anyway you want, or let an industry do it for you, but I don't want to limit my opportunity for Adventure because I might be riding an Enfield Classic or an old R65.

    An Adventure bike is the one you ride on " your" Adventure.

    I say let your ride define the bike, ........ not the other way around.
    ..
  5. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades... Super Supporter

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    Say it as loud and as long as you want, but it really doesn't change anything. I didn't do it, the industry did. Your own example about country music points that out.

    Clearly you don't understand what the genres mean in industry. So let's go through it...

    Dividing bikes into genres is a way to break down their markets into segments. What you do with the product or think it is for they don't really care. It is if they can market it and sell it.

    I kind of doubt Honda's going to sell more Gold Wings trying to market them against BMW 1250 GS. Nor will KTM sell more 500EXCs marketing them against Harley Street Glides. Dunlop isn't going to sell too many more knobbies marketing them in Roadrider. Seems there's a reason for the genre breakdown for the industry.

    So to make it really clear, the manufacturers have genres that they will focus on. They try to sell sport bikes against other sport bikes in publications that suit the product. They do the same with touring bikes, cruisers, dual sports, and off roaders. You won't see too many ads for motocross bikes in street bike magazines nor will you find ads for cruisers in motocross magazines. You won't see shoot outs where a sport bike is run against a tourer, a cruiser, and a dual sport.

    Again, they don't care how any one individual sees the bike, they care what market it needs to fit into. Riders looking for a cross country ride won't be reading motocross bike reviews or dual sport reviews. They will be looking for best touring bike reviews. Same with any of the genres. I wasn't reading reviews for adventure bikes when I was looking for my street bike. I have a dual sport and no need for an adventure bike. By the way the minute I said adventure bike and dual sport everyone who read this had a picture in their minds and it wasn't a chopper.

    If you don't get that, nothing more need be said. I kind of wonder when you didn't get the Kleenex thing, thinking it was all about boogers. You do know what Shinola is, right? Just makin' sure. :lol3
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  6. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    Well bless your heart. You're really hung up on what the industry tells you. I'm guessing you don't need an Adventure bike because your adventures happen on a dual sport. Or are you so hung up on industry genre definitions that you've decided you want no Adventure in your life? You said "a bike can help create an adventure", but bikes don't create. A bike is a tool used by the rider, unless of course the rider is a tool, if you know what I mean.

    I think you don't understand your own Kleenex reference. Just like I don't need a trademarked tissue to blow my nose, there are other suitable candidates, I don't need an industry defined "Adventure" bike to have an Adventure, I can do it on the bike of my choice.

    Just like the manufacturers don't care what I do with their product, I don't care how they try to sell it. It either suits my needs, or it doesn't. Period. You, and they, can give definition to styles of motorcycles, but you can't make me want, or need it.

    What did riders do for Adventure in 1950, 60,70? Were there no adventures before the industry OK'ed it with the blessing of an "Adventure" bike.

    For many of us a bike represents a bit of freedom, a sense of Adventure, even if it's just a few hours on the weekend, an evening ride with friends or the occasional road trip that lasts a few days, at least I thought it did till I got in this thread and learned there are those who worry about what others think of the bike they ride, or the one they bought cause they thought they would get laid, and those who would attempt to deny me having an Adventure on my old street bike.

    What's the world coming to?

    Loosen up. You ride your ride, I'll ride mine.

    ..
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  7. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades... Super Supporter

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    I understand all your emotional aspects and get it. Always have, all the points. You just don't understand mine and it is not the same as yours and does not override it.

    All I did was present the reason why motorcycle manufacturers and manufacturers of anything try to compartmentalize their product. Discover what it will be used by a majority of the people who consume the product.

    You on the other hand are in the subjective personal emotional world of consumer use. I can agree with your assessments, but that does not write off everything the manufacturers do to market their bikes. Your opinion does not do away with their pigeon holing of product. No matter what you say about your opinion or what feelings and emotions people may have with a given thing, the manufacturer made the product to fit a niche or genre - an initial reason for the product. Motorcycle manufacturers use genres to try to appeal to markets. They appeal to areas.

    In what I've presented, the name "Adventure" is simply a label, much like "Sport", "Cruiser", "Tourer", "Sport Tourer", "Enduro", "Off Road Play", "Dual Sport", "Supermoto", "Muscle Cruiser", and others. It does not dictate how the rider must ride or feel. It has nothing to do with what the rider will do with the bike, just where it fits in the marketing world. Once the customer gets the bike the manufacturer's mission is accomplished. If the "Sport" bike rider bought the bike and stuck dual sport tires on it to ride dirt/gravel roads, the manufacturer could care less. If the "Touring" bike rider wants to bend it into curves and scrape pegs/boards like they were on a sport bike the manufacturer doesn't care. Some riders buy Adventure bikes to use for delivery services where others did for touring or even just for the stereotypical Starbuck's ride. I am referring only to labels. Nothing else.

    I guarantee you the labels do not dictate anything about how the rider feels about the bike or any other product, or how they may use it. Ever see a Datsun 510? How about watching saloon car race series? Common sedans road raced. Hooligan Racing is a break out, racers running relatively near stock, but stripped down production bikes like Sportsters, FTRs, MT-07, and any other that fits the rules racing on a dirt short track. But those vehicles are not sold with the racing purpose in mind, nor are they marketed for such. A majority of owners will never consider doing what is being done with them, but some may identify with it. I do. My Yamaha XSR700 has that engine used in AFT flat track racing and I'm a flat track fan. I like that the same engine is in use. I also am working a bit on a street tracker look. The bike is sold as a modern classic throwback, not a street tracker. So yes I understand the emotional POV, I see something in my ride that probably one out of a thousand see.

    I know about what you are writing and understand it totally. When I started riding riders had to set up their bikes for the purposes they wanted. Scramblers, tourers, sport riding, custom, and the like had to be done by the rider, bikes were generic. Only off road was somewhat in genres, motocrossers and enduros. Mass market dual sport didn't exist until the DT1, mass market Adventure bikes started with the R80G/S. Many genres can be tracked back to their origins. You either cannot seem to understand manufacturing labels product and builds for marketing purposes or won't admit to knowing they do it. Manufacturers have and will continue to try to develop genres and marketing niches and you will see the effect of the labels in some use. Product differentiation. Very effective, especially in general to help sales, which I did for quite a while with Hondas, Kawasakis, and Yamahas. It starts the process, although it doesn't limit it.

    You probably still won't get it with the blinders on. Either way there is nothing more to present in explanation.
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  8. SFC_Ren

    SFC_Ren Been here awhile

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    Ahhh I see, you're a weekend warrior fair weather Harley rider whose idea of adventure is going from bar to bar or Starbucks to starbucks or a maybe long walks down by the river. I get it, that's cool! You do you man. :lol3:lol3:lol3

  9. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades... Super Supporter

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    I think we are serious about even a jaunt down town being some fun and adventure - definitely more than driving the Ranger. Like the other day when I rode to the post office after mowing the yard and getting rid of the clippings at the organic farm down the road... not much time, rain due, you take it where you can get it. I rode directly to the post office, but did the round about back home over one of the few roads in my area that actually has some curves and elevation change, along the Scioto River. Was fun and interesting, adventure in the emotional sense, not much, but maybe this weekend. It was on my modern retro Yamaha, that I want to be more street tracker (talk about imagination when riding one). Definitely never would have taken the long way home in the Ranger.

    I do have the Dual Sport that does some slithering around pea gravel corners sidewayse (that flat track imagination operating again) and goofing around in the east of the state after trucking over to there (boring flat ride for too long especially on a 250). That is where the adventure comes in, but our version requires a dual sport over an adventure bike because of how we ride and where we ride.

    I anticipate getting the SR500 street tracker to my shop to wire up and get going. There is a club maybe 50-70 miles from here that I can join to actually maybe get on a short track with the street tracker, not racing, but a track day. The main manufacturers do not really make an affordable niche bike for that, although the KTM supermotos would probably do the trick - but then I did throw affordable in there and they aren't for me, plus I want it streetable as well.
  10. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    You write all this, and then tell me I'm emotional??? Get a grip. My First new bike was a '72 Yamaha CT 175. My 175 had two front wheels, multiple sprockets, three different pipes, and a lowered engine. I rode trails, trials, motocross, flat track, TT, hill climb, all just for fun. I know about setting up for adventure. At least adventure at my pace. I currently own, a 90's R 100 GS PD, an R 1150 R, R65, A Funduro, TW 200, DR 200, a Harley FLHTP, A Honda CT 90, a Royal Enfield Classic and for good measure a KLR. Any one of them is suitable for adventure, with or without your, or the makers, blessing. What part of that do you want to argue about.

    So you used to be a salesman, that explains your insistence that you are smarter than everyone else when it comes to motorcycles. I assure you I would walk away from you quicker than you could recite any one of these posts.

    If you know what I am writing, and understand, why is it so important to change my mind?

    My first post was, without knowing at the time, the best reply for all your insistence that I am "incorrect". All bikes are adventure bikes. My advice to all who read this, don't listen to the jerks on the net, go out and enjoy yourself on what ever you've got to ride.

    ..
  11. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    No, you da man, and you know it.:clap

    Just to clear the air, I do have a Harley. It's never been to a Starbucks while I was riding it. Bought it used, don't know where it might have been previously. I have been to a Starbucks, once, it was in Estes Park Colorado, early in the morning on a KLR. They couldn't break a $100 bill, got coffee and roll for free. I used up all my liquor coupons about 20 years ago. If I find myself at a bar on a motorcycle I won't be drinking.

    Not everybody can go around the world. We each have to create our own sense of adventure, not conform to definitions determined by some internet jockey dictating rules.

    ..

    Come to think of it That old Harley was a Police bike, so It's probably spent some time down at Dunkin.
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  12. dredman

    dredman Dirty Moto-Tourist

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    I think both of you guys have been talking past each other for awhile. Pretty sure I have understood what both of you are saying, but not sure why maybe neither of you understand each other but maybe I am wrong?

    The statements I see you guys talking past each other?:

    Center-stand - "All motorcycles are Adventure motorcycles, only the rider can make it a dual, or better still, a multi sport motorcycle."
    markk53 "When discussing bikes there are some general genres and that is why the labeling, especially within the industry. No matter what any of us may think, those genres are defined in the industry."

    Maybe the issue is the word - GENRE ?

    While I agree with Center-stand, mostly because I have had adventures on all my bikes, theycertainly did not fit the genre defined by the industry?


    Now I say defined by the industry specifically because,if you think your way thru it, they DO DEFINE genre?
    Even if any one single OEM produces a bike to fit a genre, that really does not fit (Himalayan) they are still defining a genre.
    The big takeway?

    Industry defines
    Consumer decides


    The best example I can come up with is an emerging genre - EV, or ECO, or Green New Deal Bikes, or whatever they decide to market it as.

    OEMs will push for a niche(define) the genre, the consumer will decide if the genre works.
    My guess is eventually will have every category being overlaid with another qualifier - EV or ICE added to each category?

    I know guys that tour on sport bikes by adding luggage - they did not change, or redefine the genre, they are just doing what most of us do when we have a limited budget, limited space, or an angry spouse - ADAPT!

    So maybe we should talk about "categories" instead of genres? After all it is just a word?



  13. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    It's not the written word that I have trouble with, it is the idea that I need to submit to the definition someone else wants to apply to how I go about my life. Whether that be dual sports being cool or not, or whether one needs an "Adventure" bike to have an adventure. If I, or anyone else, enjoys their toys and what we do with them it makes little difference what others think. If you make decisions based on others opinions when they differ from your own, just because of a market trend, or sales pitch, you are allowing yourself to be manipulated.

    Since you pointed out the word "genre".

    The idea that motorcycle styles/models are confused with "genre" is a little puzzling to me. Considering, ...

    gen·re
    /ˈZHänrə/

    noun
    1. a category of artistic composition, as in music or literature, characterized by similarities in form, style, or subject matter.
    So I guess if you view your bike as an artistic composition of music or literature and it is similar in form, style, or subject matter it might fit in a genre.

    If that be the case, the hypothetical genre of "Adventure" bike might be in the genre fiction.:-)

    https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/genre


    The success of the Himalayan is not because of how it is marketed, it is because it suits the needs of riders all around this world. You can call it anything you want, but if it doesn't tic enough boxes for enough people it won't happen. By the same token people who have never ridden one pointing out all it's shortcomings won't stop the faithful from riding it to places the naysayers may never go.

    My first look at your video ended about two minutes in. There was nothing that appealed to me, in fact it turned me off. I read the first few pages of posts and saw the controversy, went back and looked again. Ended up clicking forward about a minute and a half to two minutes at a time. At every stop there was something about getting laid or being cool. In my mind, neither of which have anything to do with riding a dual sport. Personally neither of those words entered my mind at any time buying a motorcycle. So, .... I have to confess I don't know what your intention was, or is, with the video, but you inspired a thread and controversy.

    My point was, is, and will be, make every ride an adventure. Take every bike down a gravel road somewhere. Take the long way, don't miss a good road cause you're in a hurry. If you get in too deep, turn around, no harm, but sometimes the unknown is more inviting than the bad path you would have to backtrack. I'm getting more conservative as I age, less strength and energy, so some regret that I missed some good years in the middle.

    ..
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  14. markk53

    markk53 jack of all trades... Super Supporter

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    Refusal to acknowledge the manufacturers define their products does not make it non-existent.

    When it comes to emotions understand, emotions are not just sobs and weeping, gnashing of teeth and self flagellation by any means. By definition, emotions: a natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships. That would include the feeling of adventure - and if you aren't talking about your emotions I don't know who ever has. When I ride my bikes I get a feeling of enjoyment, fun, excitement, and, of course, adventure when on that sort of ride - emotional feelings. Each different one elicits its own set of emotions in the ride. I'm not riding what has been identified by the motorcycle industry as a sport bike, an adventure bike, a cruiser, or numerous other genres although I may be riding in a sporting, dual sporting, cruising, touring state of mind. But that doesn't change how the manufacturer defined and markets their product.

    When it comes to sales, it is about figuring out what a customer actually wants by listening and asking and then trying to fill their preference. Hell I sold so many cruisers it could make me puke - not a fan, same with tourers. But by gosh if they want one I'll do my best to get them on the one that they want. Not about what I want or like, it's figuring out what they want - what appeals to their emotions. I've sold and lost sales based mainly on color. Guy wants a Wineberry Gold Wing won't buy the brown or black colored one I do know more about the bikes in general than most customers, but not always. A well versed customer may come in knowing more than I do about certain bikes they've researched. I just figure out which one they find most attractive based on their knowledge then sell if I can. You see a good salesperson learns from the customer, not forcing views on them. That was the part that I was really good at doing. Closing sales was my real weakness. I'd rather do the work up to closing then turn the customer over to someone else to close the sale.

    Your turn...
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  15. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    Depends on how one defines, define.

    de·fine
    /dəˈfīn/
    verb
    1. 1.
      state or describe exactly the nature, scope, or meaning of.
      "the contract will seek to define the client's obligations"

      give the meaning of
      state precisely
      spell out
      put into words
      express in words


    2. 2.
      mark out the boundary or limits of.
      "the river defines the park's boundary"
    Manufacturers design and offer product based on perceived need or desire, give it a name and hope. Do you think "Adventure" bikes meet the dictionary definition of define? Do their ads mark the limits or boundaries of the bikes performance? Do the ads describe exactly the nature, scope, of acceptable use? Are we somehow limited to their definition?

    You said, "I understand all your emotional aspects", and "You on the other hand are in the subjective personal emotional world of consumer use." within several paragraphs of emotional outbursts, trying to explain things that either I already know or I don't care about. "subjective personal emotional world of consumer use" what the hell are you talking about. My whole point is I'm not subject to the whims of a manufacturer or a salesman to tell me when or what I need to have an adventure.

    Let me go back to my first post in this thread. I said, "All motorcycles are Adventure motorcycles, only the rider can make it a dual, or better still, a multi sport motorcycle." A simple statement meant to suggest you don't have to have a cool bike or be a cool person, take what you've got and go have some fun doing different things with it, an adventure.

    You immediately said, "Sorry, that's not quite correct." Spent a fair amount of time trying to convince me I'm wrong because the manufacturers define motorcycles and motorcycling, not the end user. If you recall, I suggested you use your dual sport for an adventure bike after you said, "I have a dual sport and no need for an adventure bike." However as time has moved on you say things like, "I do have the Dual Sport that does some slithering around pea gravel corners sidewayse (that flat track imagination operating again) and goofing around in the east of the state after trucking over to there (boring flat ride for too long especially on a 250). That is where the adventure comes in, but our version requires a dual sport over an adventure bike because of how we ride and where we ride."

    After all the talk, you come around to what I was saying in the first place.

    Obviously you have an issue, but damned if I know how to fix it. My viewpoint hasn't changed from the initial post, and is not likely to.

    Just an FYI, closing the sale is the part that matters, ... if you are a salesman. One's success at closing depends on all that comes before it. To fail at closing is to fail at selling.

    If it's any consolation, I'm also a terrible salesman. Probably because I hate dealing with sales people and don't want to be like them. A salesman that is not at work is OK.

    Draw????

    ..
  16. dredman

    dredman Dirty Moto-Tourist

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    I am pretty sure that was my point of the ENTIRE video, and this thread. I thought we were speaking the same language too, but maybe not?

    You know, I put several trigger warnings in the video, description, and the OP, to prevent the reaction you had. Makes sense when you admit to not watching it thru initially. My guess is that when you finally did watch more, you were still steaming - and I hate that btw? At least you understand the message I was trying to convey - riding a dual sport is not about impressing others (being cool), and that is PRECISELY why it IS cool. Maybe I can do better with my message next time?
  17. Center-stand

    Center-stand Long timer

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    There might be some philosophical parallels in our thinking, but we're not speaking the same language, if we're talking about your video script.

    Not much to do right now so I watched, no I listened, to your video. In the first 3 minutes you had already said "cool" 10 times, and continued to to say it, at least 23 times by the end. "Laid" appeared at least 9 times, mostly in the closing few minutes. Girls on dual sports, or who might like dual sports, are both rare and plentiful, depending on where you are in the video. The ones that might give it up are probably in a bar and tattooed. However, it might be possible to pick one up in the woods, but unfortunately they won't like the seat and there are no foot pegs, and it will take a gun to preserve your place in line for her affection.

    I'm somewhat amazed at how you can read peoples minds and know what they are thinking when riding your dual sport. I don't think I've ever got those bad vibes you speak of while gassing up or stopping in at the drug store, or fast food establishment, and my KLR hasn't had a bath in two years.

    Did I capture the essence of your video?

    I spent a good portion of my life as a barroom singer. If I would feel my audience slipping away I had a short list of what I called "trigger" songs. Songs that would involve my audience, get them to clap their hands, pat their feet, sing along, participate, be a part of what I was doing.

    Maybe instead of planning "triggers" that upset or turn people off, you might consider how to bring them in, inform and encourage participation in the sport. Just an idea.

    ..

    And since I'm not sure what you mean, you might take a minute to explain, "the reaction I had". Don't let my, to the point, way of writing confuse you into thinking I was, or am, "steaming". I try to be concise, doesn't always work, but I try. As for not watching it through the first time, or the second, or the third for that matter, I only listened. Remember the old story that ends with the punch line, "No, it just doesn't take me long to look at a horseshoe."

    I figured out rather quickly, the message you had was not for me. Listening all the way through, confirmed it.

    https://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/92q1/shoe.html
    ..
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  18. klaviator

    klaviator Long timer Supporter

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    After reading all the discussion I finally forced myself to watch the entire video. Keep in mind that I rarely watch videos. I just don't have the patience to watch a long video unless it's set to some good music. There was some good footage in the video but the message just didn't resonate with me. I guess I'm not your target audience. I do think that dual sport bikes look good and never felt the reactions that you claim non dual sport riders have towards dirty dual sport bikes. When other riders have come up and talked to me it was always positive.

    So your target audience is really non dual sport riders, trying to convince them to buy a dual sport motorcycle. How many non dual sport riders do you think are going to watch a 15 minute video and listen to a guy using 15 minutes to deliver a 3 or 4 minute message?

    So, while your message didn't resonate with me, the fact is that dual sport bikes have never been huge sellers here compared to cruisers or sportbikes although neither of those are really huge sellers any more. There is a reason why dual sport bikes have never caught on big here. Maybe the reasons you spoke of in the video have something to do with it.

    At least you stirred up some discussion with this thread but you screwed up with your title. You would have gotten 10 times the response it you had picked a title like "Dual sports are not as cool as Harleys". Putting Harley in the title guarantees a huge response on this forum:D
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  19. Dualsport4ever

    Dualsport4ever Been here awhile

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    I have proof that dualsports are, in fact, cool. Exhibit A: In the movie "The Wraith (1986), the cool kid (Charlie Sheen), got the girl (the very hot Sherilyn Fenn) while riding a Honda XL350R. And please don't tell me it was just a movie - we all know if it happens in a movie, it has to be true. :lol3

    image.jpeg



    Back in '85 I really did feel the XL350R was cool as hell. As a matter of fact, I still have one in my garage.

    image.jpeg
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  20. dredman

    dredman Dirty Moto-Tourist

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    That is possibly the biggest problem with all my "big idea" videos, they are not well thought out, and almost never scripted. Add poor execution, some feeble attempts at humor, lots of generalization of human motivation and behavior, stir until mixed, then bake at 450 for 30 minutes. Did it cause a revolution or change the industry? Of course not! Did it get people thinking & talking about choices, and why we are attracted to the kinds of machines we are? YEP! Mission accomplished.

    I still want to do something with the 'multi sport bike' idea - I like that a lot.