Won’t go into neutral with motor running

Discussion in 'The Garage' started by MotorcycleWriter, Sep 14, 2019.

  1. MotorcycleWriter

    MotorcycleWriter Vis ad locum

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    2017 Husqvarna TE250. Runs good otherwise. Can’t get into neutral with engine running and clutch in. Goes in fine with motor off. I do get a slight drag when starting the bike with the clutch in. Is it not disengaging completely? Still ought to go into neutral, though. All these sequential trannies are similar so anyone have an idea what I might look at? Star wheel? Clutch plates? I’d think the clutch is out of adjustment but it’s hydraulic.
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  2. shovelstrokeed

    shovelstrokeed Long timer

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    Clutch is dragging
    In order of severity:
    Slightly warped steel disc...replace
    Worn grooves in the basket....if light, file. If heavy, replace
    Hub carrier worn.....replace
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  3. willis 2000

    willis 2000 neo-quixote

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    take up the slack
    manually slip it for fun
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  4. shovelstrokeed

    shovelstrokeed Long timer

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    I’ll add a couple more things but now we are internal, meaning split cases on all but a few race bikes.
    Shift forks/drum problems ..... inspect and replace worn components
    Neutral switch plunger sticking ..... normally would cause problems leaving neutral
    There may be more but we are well beyond back yard repairs now. Will need dial indicators, a factory shop manual and expert mechanical eyes
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  5. Johann

    Johann Commuterous Tankslapperous

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    I´d try changing the gearbox oil first.
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  6. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    Can it be shifted 1-2-1-2-1 without engaging neutral?
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  7. H96669

    H96669 A proud pragmatist.

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    My Honda XR650 does that when trying 1 to N.And my XR100 was the same.

    So I lightly tap down 2 to N and usually goes right into Neutral at a standstill.

    Rolling to stop?I shift to neutral just before the wheels stop rolling.
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  8. MotorcycleWriter

    MotorcycleWriter Vis ad locum

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    Thanks for the responses, guys. I've thought about this some more and here's some more background on the problem.

    About me: experienced wrench. Mostly automotive work. Rebuilt engines, transmissions, etc. Significant motorcycle experience last ten years or so. But, zero clutch experience! I'd rather not split the case, of course.

    About the bike: 3,381 well-maintained miles. Owned the bike since... 2011. Very clean and well-serviced with no problems when I bought it. Mostly woods riding. Doesn't use oil. Runs and shifts smooth(otherwise). Gearbox oil changed regularly. I'm on fresh oil right now. Just completed significant overhaul: new wheel bearings, new swingarm bearings, full ultrasonic carb rebuild, fork rebuild, front brake caliper rebuild, valve check (good), new chain and sprockets, new countershaft seal, serviced steering bearings. Didn't touch the engine or tranny other than to change the oil.

    About the problem: I do recall falling on a rock a few years ago. Shift lever impacted rock directly. Didn't break. I recall that shifting into neutral became more difficult after that but it seems to be getting worse.

    Doesn't need it.

    Yes.

    1 --> N or 2 --> N doesn't matter. Just goes through N. Stop the motor and it slips right in easily. Sometimes it shifts into neutral properly when still rolling.
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  9. Johann

    Johann Commuterous Tankslapperous

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    See shovelstroked´s post, he has listed all the reasons a clutch will drag, and that is 100% the cause of a difficult 1-N change. Grooves on the fingers of the basket can be filed down, plates replaced. Different types of oil can definitely have an effect as well, it it was me the first thing I would be doing is experimenting with different grades/types of oil, failing that it is a clutch problem, no need to split cases.
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  10. darmst6829

    darmst6829 Been here awhile

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    The clutch is not disengaging. All of my old bikes did this and the only way to find neutral was to let the clutch out slightly then pull it back in and shift to neutral at the same time. This trick even worked on my Enfield 350. Your modern Husqvarna should be fixable though.
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  11. shinyribs

    shinyribs Thumpers for life

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    Absolutely no need to split the cases to get at the clutch on a dirt bike. They are seen as regular wear items and are intentionally very accessible. I don't know about your TE, but it's most likely behind an o-ringed cover that won't even cost you a gasket to open up and take a look.

    One the basket starts getting grooved it will make finding neutral progressively harder to find and the grooves get deeper and deeper, sorta sounds like what you mentioned.

    Playing with different oils sounds like a waste of oil to me. You have fresh oil in there now that the bike calls for. That didn't help you, so you need to find the source. Clutch kits with steel and frictions are usually around $40-60, so it's not an expensive job anyway. Probably cheaper than multiple jugs of oil.

    Your hydraulic clutch IS self adjusting, but there's no guarantee that it's activating fully. Depending on what fluid it uses, it could be due for a service itself. Or just being low on fluid would keep it from being able to disengage the clutch fully.
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  12. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    The clutch, unless abused and over-heated should be almost new at 3,400 miles.
    It could be dragging for any of the causes mentioned above.
    One additional thing to check in your case: full movement of the push rod that connects the clutch press plate with the hydraulic actuator / air in the hydraulic circuit, bad or dirty clutch master cylinder / level and quality of fluid.
    Please, see:
    https://www.motocrosscenter.com/shop/en/14057-clutch-husqvarna-te250-2017

    I would experiment from simplest to more difficult work.
    Transmission and clutch oil should not have anti-friction additives: plain old oil of specified grade.
    Hydraulic part of clutch control.
    Visual inspection of clutch parts.
    Verification of smooth and accurate operation of gear selector mechanism and locking lever: please see link below.
    https://www.motocrosscenter.com/shop/en/14061-shifting-mechanism-husqvarna-te250-2017

    If 1 and 2 are properly engaging, the problem should not be inside the transmission.
    Sometimes, shift lever impacts make its shaft slide towards the clutch cavity and the selector mechanism (accessible from clutch cavity) shifts out of position enough to keep working, but not at its best.
    In some cases, a simple and careful tapping out of the shifter shaft/lever (opposite direction of bike fall) improves the functioning of the mechanism without hurting anything.
    It is all about the precise rotation (of part 15 in linked diagram) and locking of its angular position (by part 24), which rotates the shift drum (multi-cam cylinder) (part 12), which relocates the sliding gears via forks (parts 1, 2 and 3).

    It could be that the mechanism is not as smooth as it should be and that the light foot touch that is needed to lock the cylinder at the angle for neutral (the notch for part 24) in the selector is always less deep for N) is not achievable any longer and the needed extra foot pressure to rotate the drum makes the mechanism skip N and jump to the next gear (deeper notch).
    An increasingly dragging clutch would gradually worsen that situation, as it has perhaps happened.





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  13. nickguzzi

    nickguzzi Long timer

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    Something else that's cheap to check, is the clutch lever getting full movement?
    For example , if the lever has a span adjuster, are you getting enough travel for the throw out system to completely move the pressure plate.
    Or could be the lever actuation point has worn or become broken/damaged, limiting movement.

    Some clutches are very sensitive to adjustment, a part turn either way and it either slips or drags. Double check the correct way to set your clutch, see if it done right. Not necessarily the way some bystander said you should.

    Some clutches have a ball bearing at the end of the pushrod, and usually easy to lose. Then lots of adjustment to take up the space, but all the angles are now wrong and the system is out of its optimum range of motion. The loss of the ball also mostly ends up with the push rod welding itself to one end or another.
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  14. Zuber

    Zuber Zoob Supporter

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    KTM/Husky drag a little normally. Since the shift dogs are slightly undercut, this will hold it in gear by design. The detent for neutral is small so the 1-2 shift will go right past neutral, by design. If you can ride it without issues, then it's ok.

    On 'some' KTM/Husky clutches you can improve how well it releases. Pull out all the plates and inspect the metal ones. Some plates are stamped out and have a sharp edge and a rounded edge. If you restack it with all the rounded edges out, then it will release better.
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  15. Yinzer Moto

    Yinzer Moto Long timer Supporter

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    Difficulty finding neutral is common on the KTM/Husky’s. Be happy it is that way because accidentally finding neutral during a shift on a sketchy hill climb or before a big log jump, is a lot worse.

    Something to check is bleeding the clutch. If there is a an air bubble, it will not completely disengage the clutch.
    #15
  16. ohgood

    ohgood Just givver tha berries !!!

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    if the bike is completely warm and it still does this, i would expect a notched clutch basket.

    you can inspect it easy enough, just pull the clutch and flat file if needed.
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  17. MotorcycleWriter

    MotorcycleWriter Vis ad locum

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    Newqban, thanks for the very detailed write up. Looking forward to digesting it all. I once rebuilt a Ford Toploader 4-speed and figured out how it worked. Rebuilt a Ford C4 automatic and kind of figured out how it worked (it didn't... crappy transmission.) Been wondering how a sequential shift motorcycle transmission and clutch mechanism work. Videos should be a big help. Garage torn apart right now - installing additional plugs and pegboard in new home. Traveling for job mid-part of week. Should be plenty of time to look over the videos and maybe get back to the bike on the weekend. I'm doing a full garage build out right now, building and installing cabinets, workbench, lighting, insulation, heat, etc. Want to be able to work on bikes in this long, cold Northern Utah winter. Everything's getting juggled around that right now. Because... winter's coming...
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  18. Motomantra

    Motomantra Registered Lurker

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    About the problem: I do recall falling on a rock a few years ago. Shift lever impacted rock directly. Didn't break. I recall that shifting into neutral became more difficult after that but it seems to be getting worse.

    This sentence may be a clue, as it will sometimes bend internal linkages.
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  19. lnewqban

    lnewqban Ninjetter

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    About multi-disc wet clutches:
    http://www.dansmc.com/clutches.htm

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  20. concours

    concours WFO for 47 years

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    Clean, flush, bleed the hydraulic clutch. An air bubble will decrease the travel, enough to cause incomplete disengagement.
    Check your manual for proper fluid requirement.
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