Won't start when warm

Discussion in 'Parallel Universe' started by oclv454, Apr 10, 2010.

  1. David_S

    David_S Long timer

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    Yes. The easiest way is to remove the seat and listen right at the pump connector. Once you here it and know what to listen for you can hear it with the seat on. There are a lot of buzzes and clicking going on when the key is cycled on but the pump gives a distinctive whine for a very brief period when the key is cycled.
    #21
  2. Dolly Sod

    Dolly Sod I want to do right, but not right now Supporter

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    So is it not even priming when you have the failure to start?
    #22
  3. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    There was an append over on F800Riders about a guy with same issue.
    The dealer found that the voltage at the fuel pump only 1.5V, not enough to start the fuel pump. They used a jumper wire and ran it from the + side of the battery to the blue green connector at the fuel pump and the bike started and ran fine.

    Also note that if you look at the MaxBMW microfiche for our bikes you will find new (superceeded) P/N posted for both the fuel pump and the fuel pump control electronics.

    There is a 2-wire and a 3-wire connector going into the top of the fuel pump assby, I'd sure like the color code for the wiring on those plugs. In the mean time I have added a jumper wire to my on-bike tool kit.
    #23
  4. David_S

    David_S Long timer

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    I haven't verified this. Since I have started digging into it it has not acted up so I have not been able to verify whether it is priming or not.
    #24
  5. David_S

    David_S Long timer

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    I think the two wires are for the sender but I may be wrong. The 3 wires have power and ground on two when the pump is running and the third a bit over 7 volts after the pump is running and the bike started. The system has the ability to sense fuel pump current draw (at least I've read that it does) so I think that is what the third wire is for but that is speculation on my part since I have no info or diagram to go by (thanks bmw :bluduh) . If I run a jumper from the battery positive to the wire carrying the battery voltage when the pump is not running the pump will still not run so I'm doubtful the dealer really accomplished that. Probably just a fluke and the bike would have started regardless of the jumper. The pump only gets power for a very brief period during the key on cycle and then goes to just over 1 volt. It happens so fast my dvom can not even pick up the full sweep of voltage increase and decrease. There will not be battery voltage at the pump after that initial key cycle until cranking when the controller then turns on the pump and the bike starts so seeing low voltage there with the key on engine off is normal, at least on my bike it is. I'm probably going to end up running two jumpers to the pos and neg wires on that 3 wire connector and see if the pump runs. If it does at least I'll be able to manual activate the pump and if that gets the bike started then I'll at least know it's fuel pump control and not pump or injectors. Of course getting the dealer to believe that if they can't verify it is going to be difficult. I think part of the problem with the dealers is this technology is new to many of the techs so it's on the job training so to speak. I've been an auto tech for over 25 years and at a new car dealership for the last 20 and I'm continuously learning to fix things as they break so I can't see it being any different for bikes. Not to mention trying to diagnose a problem that will only occur very intermittently can be a nightmare. Hopefully someone will get a concrete fix on this because there are enough out there with the same issue that the fix will probably be the same for all or most of them. We just need someone's dealer to get a for sure fix on one. I like riding too much to leave my bike sit at the dealer indefinitely hopping it will act up long enough for them to diagnose it so I'm just riding around with a can of starting fluid in the back. I'm not sure whether superseded parts numbers mean they have been modified. The manufacturer I work for supersedes part numbers on a regular basis and many times end up back with the original number. I was told by a factory rep that anytime they change suppliers for a part the number changes.
    #25
  6. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Thanks David!
    Keep us posted....

    My bike has made kind of an electronic "beep" that lasted about one second every time I turn the key on, I figured it was a "feature" ....

    Last night I took the seat off and found that it is the fuel pump priming or so it sounds when I put my ear up to the pump. At least on my bike it is very easy to hear/recognize when the prime cycle is happening .... now that I know what it is ........ :lol3

    I had the fuel sender unit replaced a while back on the recall and I SWEAR that since then the fuel pump sounds louder I can hear it hummmmmmmmmm at idle. I took it back to the dealer and they ran the diags. on it and said it was all good ....
    #26
  7. JoelWisman

    JoelWisman Long timer

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    Alcohol is not a problem as long as the fuel does not ALSO contain significant water, or is missing solvents and buffers required in specific ratios.

    A few states actually test fuel octane

    Fewer still actually test for alcohol quantity and required additives

    Most simply check metering accuracy

    Many many things, hundreds can and do cause stalls so it is not just one mysterious problem.

    Occasionally fuel contamination IS the problem.

    I still don't know what this is:

    <a href="http://www.flickr.com/photos/thyjoel/4377744339/" title="P1020876 by thyjoel, on Flickr"><img src="http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4051/4377744339_7ddf945cdb.jpg" width="500" height="375" alt="P1020876" /></a>

    But I do know that I pumped it into a freshly uncrated bike from a station down the street.

    2.5 months later when the bike sold and would not start for the test ride before delivery, the above picture was what I found in the tank.

    So whatever this is, it came from a reputable fuel station and corroded the fuel pump to death and stuck the fuel injectors shut.


    Not saying this is anyone else's cause of stalling as there are many, but bad fuel is real and does cause damage.
    #27
  8. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    :cry

    ahhhhhhhhhhhh crap.............

    Joel you are scaring me ........

    How in the hell can I guy out for a long ride protect against this....

    Recovering from this is real money (not like the old days of carbs) and how would you be able to pin it on the gas station?
    #28
  9. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    Quick update on my starting issue. The fuel in my tank tested at 10% ethanol. Injectors were ordered and should be here in day or two. I decided not to do the charcoal cannister and fuel pump. Charcoal cannister not terribly expensive but hard to get at to change it. Fuel pump pretty expensive and they felt the pump should be fine. I got the idea that someone in the BMW organization suggested putting BMW fuel additive in the gas on these engines. I'll be skiing Thursday through Sunday so will pick it up on Tuesday. Will keep you posted. oclv
    #29
  10. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Oclv:

    Thanks for the update!

    Like someone else said first ... It seems curious that BOTH injectors could go dead at the same time ... if only one was bad it could start and run (badly) on one cylinder. For both to go bad at the same time it almost seems like there would have to be some "common" issue upstream of the injectors ... :huh Have fun sking ... keep us posted!
    #30
  11. ULELUZE

    ULELUZE Been here awhile

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    My F800 does this as well, going in for the 10k service next week and this is one of the items I would like them to look at. I find it does it cold or hot and will start with a few twists of the throttle after about 20 seconds of cranking. If I dont give any throttle it will not start.
    #31
  12. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    Run a heavy dose of seafoam thru it and clean the injectors now. She will start without issues once they are clean.
    #32
  13. David_S

    David_S Long timer

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    just to throw this out there. Mine was to the point I was ready to sell it I had such little confidence. I shorted the ground cable to the positive side of the battery for a few hours (thanks Joel Wisman) while I went to town to buy some seafoam. I also quit running shell gas. It has not failed to start for the last 500 or so miles which is probably 2 weeks worth of daily commuting. If it is in fact fixed I'll attribute it to the memory clearing process rather than fuel or dirty injectors. It just ran too good when it started for it to be fuel or dirty injectors. When it wouldn't start it just plain would not start no matter what I did with the throttle. I never was able to confirm whether the fuel pump was priming or not as it hasn't acted up since i started chasing the problem :clap I'm planning a 12-14 day trip for late June early July so i hope this gal doesn't let me down or I'll be riding home on a wee or something different for sure!
    #33
  14. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    I picked up my motorcycle last Friday. They replaced the injectors and suggested BMW Techron fuel additive. I rode Monday and Tuesday night. Many shut off and starts. Put in gas on Monday. So far everything seems as it should. Hopefully there will be no more starting issues. Now if I can smooth out the off idle throttle surges. The more I ride it the better I get with it, but it is a handful on technical rocky conditions. oclv
    #34
  15. BMWHillbilly

    BMWHillbilly Been here awhile

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    I have had a few non-starts with the spinning and spinning and the tech told me to listen for the fuel pump to prime next time I have an issue. Mine usually wouldn't start after sitting a day or two. the temps were around 50* ambient in the mornings. He also re-calibrated the idle actuator but wasn't sure it would help. I have not had a starting issue since ( ~1000 miles ago)

    *knock on wood*
    #35
  16. gpracer171

    gpracer171 Kodak Courage

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    Just purchased a 2003 F650GS for my father. Did not want to start. When It did start I noticed the Tach did not register for the first few seconds and it was runner very rough. I shut it off at the key, waited a few moments and it started and acted fine. I suspect this is a controller issue. Now he reports it had an issue in traffic that it would not idle without dying. He then made a stop, shut it off and when he continued, no issue, it ran fine. I think there is something to the memory idea and the controller concern. Looks like a glitch in the electronics.
    #36
  17. cycledoc

    cycledoc PNW

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    oclv,
    when i read your initial post i thought i was reading my own writing! i had the exact same thing happen to me a month or so ago - up riding trails all day with no issues, fueled up before hitting the highway to go home (at a Shell station), then nothing. i also filled the tank rather full (while on side stand), but no firing even with gas cap open. BMW walked me through the computer reset (unplug negative terminal for few minutes, plug back in, key on, fully open and close throttle 3 times, then start) - nada... eventually like you had to get it hauled to dealer. they could find nothing wrong, started right up a few days later when they finally could get to looking at it. diagnostics offered no cause. haven't had a problem since, but definitely makes you worry about going into the boonies. i'll definitely be trying some seafoam to try to clean the injectors, but you'd think it would have at least run rough or gave some sign of dirty injectors prior to the failure firing altogether. i'll be curious to see if anyone gets to the bottom of this. sorry for your troubles but glad i'm not the only one!
    #37
  18. oclv454

    oclv454 Been here awhile

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    Cycledoc, you are not the only one. Mine has been running fine since the new injectors were installed. I haven't been riding much since they were installed and have only filled the gas tank twice since the fix (seems to be snowing here every other day). I put in 4 ounces of Seafoam on the last tank. I am carrying the fuel additive in a metal 20 ounce fuel container that I got at REI. I also bought a little plastic measuring cup that has marks on it for ounces. I got some BMW techron fuel additive and some Seafoam. I plan to use the Seafoam for a while, then when my fuel bottle is empty I'll switch to the BMW fuel additive and see if there is any difference. I am still wary about the injector fix. Seems odd to me also that a bike will run perfectly, then a couple minutes later won't run at all and have it due to clogged injectors. Seems more of an electrical issue or computer issue to me. oclv
    #38
  19. Indy Unlimited

    Indy Unlimited Long timer

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    I was as in much belief but I have had no issues using Seafoam for 4 months now with the new injectors and I buy the worst ethanol gas made by Shell.
    My understanding is the ethanol & water eat and corrodes the fuel pump which in turn clogs the injectors. I now run 4 oz of Seamfoam per tank and she starts every time and runs great. During the winter I had pulled up to 3 gas stations and could not restart after filling due to the injectors getting clogged. The tapping trick helps but you really need seafoam to break down particles and unclog the injectors. It really really works!:clap
    #39
  20. JRWooden

    JRWooden never attribute to malice...

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    Please keep us posted on the seafoam vs. BMW fuel additive! :clap
    Just from reading the ingredient list I would think the BMW (aka Techron Fuel System Cleaner) would do a better job but WTF do I know....
    #40